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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
I find it very difficult to believe the scientific study in question made this elementary error - and you have not shown that they have. Instead, you have simply engaged in unrelated speculation. |
The study itself may not have 'made this elementary error' but those reporting these studies (and comparing studies) very often do when they state certain conclusions. |
Once again, since you are making a claim about the data, the onus is on you to support your claim about the data.
| Big Bird wrote: |
| Your journalist friend reporting in the Daily Mail certainly did. |
No he didn't. He cited a scientific study and it would be remarkable if this study committed the elementary fallacy you cite. Please provide evidence that this fallacy has taken place in the study. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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None of the claims you've made are vindicated by that |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The UK has equal (or better) life expectancy than the US, even though we're apparently so much worse at treating these problems. And we spend a lot less of our GDP on healthcare, meaning we have more expedable income and a higher quality of life. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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The conclusion I'd be tempted to draw from that is that the health services in the rest of Europe have suffered far less than the NHS from cutbacks and Thatcherite drives to manage hospitals on business models using inappropriate measures of 'efficiency' and 'performance'. I see no reason to assume the solution is more privatized medicine (always an option for those with money anyway) rather than more socialized medicine. In other words, both Britain and the US should be looking to France's system for lessons.
(And the obvious immediate measure to take in Britain would be a earlier cancer screening tests). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| both Britain and the US should be looking to France's system for lessons. |
Definitely. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Seriously folks, we spend MORE on health care and yet have the WORST health out of practically all developed countries. I truly believe that anyone defending the US system is very unfamiliar with it, or been fortunate enough to have a kick ass PPO as their health insurance provider.
Is Obama's plan ideal? Probably not. But I'm pretty confident it is an improvement over what we have now; be hard to make it any worse. And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
Well, why not? Obama and the Dems have the votes, no? The Repubs are only able to cry and scream and Obama's 2012 chances can rely on the outcome of the policy? Can't they just push it through? The electorate will move on and fuss about something else quickly.. What am I missing? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Well it's amazing but I agree with you Mises. I'd be amazed if the Dems don't forcefully push through a public option. If the public option doesn't happen it's not true reform and it'll cripple Obama's presidency (although he'll probably win a second term anyway). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
Well, why not? Obama and the Dems have the votes, no? The Repubs are only able to cry and scream and Obama's 2012 chances can rely on the outcome of the policy? Can't they just push it through? The electorate will move on and fuss about something else quickly.. What am I missing? |
The fact that Democrats are steadily selling out to the Insurance Industry. They're the real villains here. At least Republicans can hypothetically hide behind their alleged convictions regarding governmental intervention. Democrats who oppose a public option are pure sell-outs. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
Well, why not? Obama and the Dems have the votes, no? The Repubs are only able to cry and scream and Obama's 2012 chances can rely on the outcome of the policy? Can't they just push it through? The electorate will move on and fuss about something else quickly.. What am I missing? |
The fact that Democrats are steadily selling out to the Insurance Industry. They're the real villains here. At least Republicans can hypothetically hide behind their alleged convictions regarding governmental intervention. Democrats who oppose a public option are pure sell-outs. |
Yes. People like Senator Ben Nelson (who has been singled out in a tv ad). What a bunch of dipshits.
Mises, you're assuming there is party discipline. There isn't. There are a lot of gutless Dems out there who will vote against any public option. Oh, and they're worried about 2010, not 2012. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: ... |
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| Ok, well, I have no dog in this fight but it is very interesting to watch. |
Oh, is that what you've been doing?
If so, then why don't you have a big cup of [I'm just watching} and try watching instead of lambasting Europeans about their fertility rates, invoking the imminent death of what you call socialism, and licking the *beep* of American insurance companies?
How bout dat?
I mean, if modern Europe is going to become a latter-day Ottoman Empire, then might you not stick to the message?
It's about the market, right?
Free-market healthcare is the doll of modern heathcare systems, no?
And European healthcare is a free ride, right? No one pays for it, right?
Take your pretend dog elsewhere or stop pretending, m'kay? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
The conclusion I'd be tempted to draw from that is that the health services in the rest of Europe have suffered far less than the NHS from cutbacks and Thatcherite drives to manage hospitals on business models using inappropriate measures of 'efficiency' and 'performance'. I see no reason to assume the solution is more privatized medicine (always an option for those with money anyway) rather than more socialized medicine. In other words, both Britain and the US should be looking to France's system for lessons.
(And the obvious immediate measure to take in Britain would be a earlier cancer screening tests). |
Sounds good, Privateer, sounds good. But aren't we forgetting something?
French people look like this
Americans, however, look like this
A French-style healthcare system in the US would, as such, lead to national insolvency within a few short years. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
Well, why not? Obama and the Dems have the votes, no? The Repubs are only able to cry and scream and Obama's 2012 chances can rely on the outcome of the policy? Can't they just push it through? The electorate will move on and fuss about something else quickly.. What am I missing? |
The fact that Democrats are steadily selling out to the Insurance Industry. They're the real villains here. At least Republicans can hypothetically hide behind their alleged convictions regarding governmental intervention. Democrats who oppose a public option are pure sell-outs. |
Yes. People like Senator Ben Nelson (who has been singled out in a tv ad). What a bunch of dipshits.
Mises, you're assuming there is party discipline. There isn't. There are a lot of gutless Dems out there who will vote against any public option. Oh, and they're worried about 2010, not 2012. |
BB is right. Furthermore, as Ya-Ta's thread explains, the Blue Dogs, the 10 or so senators in the middle who make up the Democratic advantage in the Senate to push through a filibuster, are getting lots of money from the health care industry. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I STRONGLY support the idea of a public option, but I think the odds of that happening now are a million to one. |
Well, why not? Obama and the Dems have the votes, no? The Repubs are only able to cry and scream and Obama's 2012 chances can rely on the outcome of the policy? Can't they just push it through? The electorate will move on and fuss about something else quickly.. What am I missing? |
The fact that Democrats are steadily selling out to the Insurance Industry. They're the real villains here. At least Republicans can hypothetically hide behind their alleged convictions regarding governmental intervention. Democrats who oppose a public option are pure sell-outs. |
Yes. People like Senator Ben Nelson (who has been singled out in a tv ad). What a bunch of dipshits.
Mises, you're assuming there is party discipline. There isn't. There are a lot of gutless Dems out there who will vote against any public option. Oh, and they're worried about 2010, not 2012. |
BB is right. Furthermore, as Ya-Ta's thread explains, the Blue Dogs, the 10 or so senators in the middle who make up the Democratic advantage in the Senate to push through a filibuster, are getting lots of money from the health care industry. |
I just e-mailed Senator Nelson's office with a rather crude e-mail. I probably should look up the other Senators and send a similar message. Won't do anything, but will make me feel like I at least tried something.
My e-mail:
Thankfully for Senator Nelson, I am not a resident of the state of Nebraska, because if he were, I would never vote for the man. Why? His behavior and position in the health care debate is disgusting. It is clear the Senator is protecting the interests of his fund raising contributors at the expense of the greater good.
Sadly Senator Nelson does not have the interests of the American public as his number one priority. Instead he has put himself as that priority. While that type of behavior might suit a Wall St. stock broker, it does not suit a public servant.
In short, Senator Nelson has become a disgrace to both the Democratic Party and the US Senate. He can only hope and pray that his constituents remain in the dark about his role in health care reform.
I also plan to contribute money to whomever runs against the Senator in the next election. Why? Because while I might not support his opponent's platform, odds are he won't be selling out to his fund raising contributors as blatantly as Senator Nelson is now. |
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