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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Look, I know it's a bit sick. But while Sunnis are killing Shi'ites and vice versa in Iraq, they're not killing us over here. There are many reasons the US invaded Iraq - this is one. |
That is all the more reason why we should not be going over there to stop it. |
Dear me. According to RJjr, we started it. According to you, we're stopping it.
The invasion of Iraq in 2003 started the Islamic Civil War. Saddam Hussein's totalitarian regime was the sole thing preventing it from happening previously.
| Caniff wrote: |
| Just a question: How were they going to kill us over here? Iraqis, I mean |
The Islamic Civil War has taken in countless foreign terrorists - Al Qaeda for example - who would otherwise take up opprtunities for terror elsewhere. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| And they've been able to kill thousands of American soldiers and waste hundreds of billions of our dollars. Seems like a great deal for them. Before, they had to make it all the way over to our shores and execute a conspiracy, and were almost always caught along the way. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| The invasion of Iraq in 2003 started the Islamic Civil War. Saddam Hussein's totalitarian regime was the sole thing preventing it from happening previously. |
Are you paraphrasing what I said or is that your opinion also?
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| The Islamic Civil War has taken in countless foreign terrorists - Al Qaeda for example - who would otherwise take up opprtunities for terror elsewhere. |
What opportunity elsewhere could possible be worse for us than letting them kill off the only Americans brave enough to go fight? Gee, thank God and Bush that my nation is going broke so we can send the best men and women we have to die and become human vegetables so everyone else in America can watch John and Kate Plus Eight without the boogeyman getting them.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Islamic_Jihad
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he Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Arabic: الجهاد الإسلامي المصري ) (EIJ), formerly called simply Islamic Jihad ( الجهاد الإسلامي and Liberation Army for Holy Sites[1] ) originally referred to as "al-Jihad," and then "the Jihad Group", or "the Jihad Organization",[2] is an Egyptian Islamist group active since the late 1970s. It is under worldwide embargo by the United Nations as an affiliate of al-Qaeda.[3] It is also banned by several individual governments including that of the Russian Federation.[4] Since 1991 it has been led by Ayman al-Zawahiri. |
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External Aid
The extent of its aid from outside of Egypt is not known. The Egyptian Government claims that both Iran and Osama bin Laden support the Islamic Jihad. It also may obtain some funding through various Islamic nongovernmental organizations, cover businesses, and criminal acts.[citation needed]
Iraq March 1993 agreed to renew relations with the Islamic Jihad Organization in Egypt.[36] |
Saddam had nothing to do with Al Qaida, nothing at all.
It is a fact that Osama Bin Laden , Ayman al-Zawahiri , Mohammad Atef and everyone in Al Qaeda were all born in Afghanistan. Weren't they?
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| The invasion of Iraq in 2003 started the Islamic Civil War. Saddam Hussein's totalitarian regime was the sole thing preventing it from happening previously. |
Are you paraphrasing what I said or is that your opinion also? |
My opinion is that the Coalition - at least partly - deposed Saddam in order to deliberately spark an internal Islamic conflict. They can't possibly have neglected the likelihood of civil war. I don't however think one could possibly argue that the civil war itself is solely our fault. Nobody is forcing them to kill each other.
| RJjr wrote: |
What opportunity elsewhere could possible be worse for us than letting them kill off the only Americans brave enough to go fight? |
Exactly my point. The conflict drew every terrorist in the book to one comparatively little place. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I love the new neo-con revisionist history. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| I love the new neo-con revisionist history. |
Can you please be more specific? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| I love the new neo-con revisionist history. |
Don't call me a neo-con, please. I find it offensive. I'm a classical Enlightenment liberal.
I've been saying this stuff since day one. And the reason I keep on saying it is because no-one has yet given me an even remotely believable alternative.
You expect me to believe the United States government completely forgot about the possibility of an internal conflict in what is a profoundly, utterly sectarian society previously held together solely by brute force? Never gonna happen. You may as well ask me to believe in Noah's Ark. Alternatively, the govt might not've forgotten exactly, but certainly erred in their assessment of any eventuality of civil war and its devastation. Maybe they thought it'd be a quick in-and-out and everyone lives happily ever after. Again, ridiculous. A far better theory is that civil war - Muslim extremists killing each other - was a desirable, planned consequence. Or, if civil war wasn't desirable and planned exactly, it certainly was likely and not a particularly persuasive reason not to invade and achieve other goals.
Take your pick. Believe what you want. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| I love the new neo-con revisionist history. |
Don't call me a neo-con, please. I find it offensive. I'm a classical Enlightenment liberal.
I've been saying this stuff since day one. And the reason I keep on saying it is because no-one has yet given me an even remotely believable alternative. |
How about that they were incompetent
The rest is the standard neo-con revisionism. Since no WMD were found, no links with AQ, the weren't welcomed as liberators etc........
the main excuse now is that the Iraq invasion and occupation prevented the US from being attacked again because they terrorists are too busy fighting us and each other in Iraq.
P.S - none of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Egyptian Islamic Jihad |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Look, I know it's a bit sick. But while Sunnis are killing Shi'ites and vice versa in Iraq, they're not killing us over here. There are many reasons the US invaded Iraq - this is one. |
That is all the more reason why we should not be going over there to stop it. |
Dear me. According to RJjr, we started it. According to you, we're stopping it.
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According to YOU, as quoted above yet again, the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other was one reason we went there. Reread it if you don't remember what you wrote.
Or are you saying that we went there to deliberately set them about killing each other? Now that's really the kind of country I want to be a part of. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
How about that they were incompetent |
I've already discussed that. You're asking me to believe the Coalition neglected the possibility of fighting between Sunnis and Shi'ites. I find that comical. They'd have to completely forget about and disregard the history and the demographics of the region.
| catman wrote: |
The rest is the standard neo-con revisionism. Since no WMD were found, no links with AQ, the weren't welcomed as liberators etc........
the main excuse now is that the Iraq invasion and occupation prevented the US from being attacked again because they terrorists are too busy fighting us and each other in Iraq. |
You're not thinking logically.
Premise 1: no WMDs were found
Premise 2: no links with AQ established
Premise 3: not welcomed as liberators
Conclusion: no deliberate attempt to provoke civil war
It's a fallacy of the ad hominem variety - that, since "neo-cons" have made numerous false claims previously, any claim must be false in the light, and solely in the light, of this fact.
| catman wrote: |
| P.S - none of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq. |
What relevance does that have to our discussion on the Sunni/Shia War and my contention that it was started by the Coalition deliberately? None |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| According to YOU, as quoted above yet again, the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other was one reason we went there. |
That's correct
| bacasper wrote: |
| Or are you saying that we went there to deliberately set them about killing each other? |
That's correct
| bacasper wrote: |
| Now that's really the kind of country I want to be a part of. |
pointless drivel |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Now that's really the kind of country I want to be a part of. |
pointless drivel |
I am sorry you are unable to grasp the point that I aspire to something better for my country, and marauding around the planet instigating civil wars at a cost of a tremendous amount of my tax dollars is not part of that.
And, I love to travel the world. I am also sorry that people around the globe hate me because I am American for doing just such things.
But good luck with that whole evil empire thing. Sadism much? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| I love the new neo-con revisionist history. |
Don't call me a neo-con, please. I find it offensive. I'm a classical Enlightenment liberal. |
But Sergio.. Remember Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson. What is seen and unseen. There is not a strong classical liberal case for the Iraq war. The potential unseen consequences are too extreme. In finance, it's called a 5 sigma event. An unseen event that explodes a model. We have made the probability of a nuke etc going off in the Upper East Side much more likely by sticking a stick in the hornets nest. That would ruin everything. We must strive for stability. |
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