|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| So you're saying you can't find one of those thousand links? |
Yeah, spoiled for choice really. Most of them are just run of the mill, what you would probably call "conspiracy theory" sites. As for finding any with documented proof, no, it's impossible (because the Fed has never been publicly audited, as you know). Same goes for jaykimf's link - there is no proof in it whatsoever.
It's pointless to debate it in that sense, since the Fed's books are closed. But jaykimf still can't answer where the money he claims is handed back to the government is. We're talking about countless trillions of dollars. Have you ever heard the government mention receiving this money from the Fed? I never have. Neither has jaykimf.
Last edited by visitorq on Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jaykimf wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
Let me put it this way. The Fed provides the only legal tender used as reserves (its unbacked Federal Reserve Account Unit Dollars) to all the commercial banks (Citi, JPM-C, BoA etc. which are the shareholders of the Fed itself), which allows them, through legally mandated fractional reserve banking (which is literally, by definition, legalized fraud), to then create at least 9 times that amount of new money out of thin air, all backed by absolutely nothing, and then loan it out as debt to the public and the government, all at interest. The interest earned by these banks is most definitely kept by the banks themselves (don't think anybody would argue that).
Now whether or not the the Fed itself returns the interest earned on fraud-currency loans to the US gov't, there is simply no way of verifying it on the Fed side, because the books are closed. But you have to ask yourself the obvious question: why would the government allow the privately owned Fed to charge interest to the government, as well as pay all revenue from personal income tax, if all that money were just given right back? Why would they he government take the money collected from income tax to pay off the interest on debt owed to the to the Fed, if that interest were always just given back to the government anyway? Makes zero sense. And given that the balance sheets in the government are at least open, where is all that money to be found that was supposedly 'handed over' by the Fed? We are talking about obscene amounts of money, hundreds of billions of dollars per year, plus all the income tax revenue which is paid to the Fed. It's nowhere to be found. |
The real question I have to ask myself is how much time I want to waste arguing with a troll. Anyway, the books are not closed. All you had to do was click on the link I gave above and you could see the audit reports performed by Deloit and Touche and by Price Waterhouse. Of course you won't bother to read the reports because you can't be bothered by minor details like the actual facts and are too busy speculating. Of course you could cite any number of your fellow crackpots parroting each other's talking points. Instead of reading only crackpots why don't you go to your local college and take an introductory class on Money and Banking. Or at least check out their textbook from the library and read that. Of course trolls like you obviously won't bother. |
I'm sorry if you think I'm a troll, but I did read your links and they just defy reason. If you really know so much, then why not address my points?
Directly from your link, the claim is that the total amount the entire Fed earns on interest is $40.9 billion. Given the countless trillions of dollars circulating the world (all of which, one way or another, is owed back to the Fed (and/or the commercial banks that own it), the only institution where the un-backed fiat fraud notes can be "redeemed", this is an absurdly low amount.
Not to mention that last year the US government paid around $400 billion just to service interest on the national debt. You might say that not all of this debt is owed to the Fed directly. But indirectly, ALL dollar denominated debt is owed back the Fed one way or another.
So any true audit would need to determine who actually owns the Fed, and where all this interest ends up. You claim it all goes back the government, but your link states only $40 billion does.
How do you explain all all this? Rather than acting smart, why don't you account for this glaring discrepancy? If you are able to answer this, I'd actually appreciate it... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
"It is frequently argued that the Fed is the reason for the government's debt. The argument usually is that, if it were not for the Fed, the government could have issued money itself directly from the Treasury, and would not have had to borrow; it then would not have had to pay interest. Sometimes it is implied that the only reason the Treasury issues securities is so that the Fed and its member banks can earn interest. Some commentators appear to believe that all Treasury debt is owned by the Fed.
The Fed's holdings of securities and its transactions are almost always conducted in the securities of the U.S. government. But the Fed never buys or sells directly to or from the Treasury; it is prohibited from doing so. It always conducts its business with the public in the open market. When the government needs to borrow to finance its operations, the Treasury sells its bonds and bills either directly to the public or through so-called "primary dealers." The Federal Reserve typically buys these already-sold securities from the dealers.
Government debt is generated by government borrowing. Whenever, receipts to the Treasury are less than outlays, the government must borrow to cover the difference. The amount of borrowing, measured by the deficit, is not decided by the Fed. The government's debt and deficit are the result of the budgetary decisions of the Congress and President.
A choice that the government has -- a choice that is largely made by the Fed -- is how much of that borrowing is going to be in the form of interest-bearing securities and how much is in the form of non-interest-bearing money. The decision is greatly influenced by the fact that excessive amounts of money creation are inflationary. Consequently, the amount of money used to finance the deficit is limited if inflation is to be avoided. All the rest must be financed by selling interest-bearing securities.
As to the argument that the Fed gets the interest under the current system, and that the Treasury could avoid the interest payments if it issued the money itself, one must keep in mind that the Fed turns its profits over to the Treasury. Consequently, it makes no difference whether the Fed or the Treasury issues the money. In one case, the Treasury issues money, and saves the interest expense of issuing securities. In the other case, the Treasury issues securities, the Fed buys them, the Treasury pays interest, and the Fed gives the interest back. There is no difference in cost.
In any case, the amount involved is small relative to the government's total debt. Of the outstanding U.S. debt, the Fed holds less than 10%. The Fed can hardly be considered responsible for the fact that the government owes $4 trillion when it only holds $400 billion of it. "
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm#hd17 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jaykimf wrote: |
"It is frequently argued that the Fed is the reason for the government's debt. The argument usually is that, if it were not for the Fed, the government could have issued money itself directly from the Treasury, and would not have had to borrow; it then would not have had to pay interest. Sometimes it is implied that the only reason the Treasury issues securities is so that the Fed and its member banks can earn interest. Some commentators appear to believe that all Treasury debt is owned by the Fed.
The Fed's holdings of securities and its transactions are almost always conducted in the securities of the U.S. government. But the Fed never buys or sells directly to or from the Treasury; it is prohibited from doing so. It always conducts its business with the public in the open market. When the government needs to borrow to finance its operations, the Treasury sells its bonds and bills either directly to the public or through so-called "primary dealers." The Federal Reserve typically buys these already-sold securities from the dealers.
Government debt is generated by government borrowing. Whenever, receipts to the Treasury are less than outlays, the government must borrow to cover the difference. The amount of borrowing, measured by the deficit, is not decided by the Fed. The government's debt and deficit are the result of the budgetary decisions of the Congress and President.
A choice that the government has -- a choice that is largely made by the Fed -- is how much of that borrowing is going to be in the form of interest-bearing securities and how much is in the form of non-interest-bearing money. The decision is greatly influenced by the fact that excessive amounts of money creation are inflationary. Consequently, the amount of money used to finance the deficit is limited if inflation is to be avoided. All the rest must be financed by selling interest-bearing securities.
As to the argument that the Fed gets the interest under the current system, and that the Treasury could avoid the interest payments if it issued the money itself, one must keep in mind that the Fed turns its profits over to the Treasury. Consequently, it makes no difference whether the Fed or the Treasury issues the money. In one case, the Treasury issues money, and saves the interest expense of issuing securities. In the other case, the Treasury issues securities, the Fed buys them, the Treasury pays interest, and the Fed gives the interest back. There is no difference in cost. |
I'll admit I can't provide documentation that definitively disproves the bolded statement, but by no means do I believe it. Why on earth would they pay interest if it were just handed right back? Where are the records of that money ever being handed over? Why does the government pay $400 billion per year on interest payments (collected from federal income tax) if the Fed, which is by far the largest holder of Treasury debt, is handing most that money back? It doesn't make any sense. Why is there not a single document or source or statement of income on the government side for this money supposedly received from the Fed? There is nothing to be found.
| Quote: |
In any case, the amount involved is small relative to the government's total debt. Of the outstanding U.S. debt, the Fed holds less than 10%. The Fed can hardly be considered responsible for the fact that the government owes $4 trillion when it only holds $400 billion of it. "
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm#hd17 |
^ First of all, this is just patently false (and puts the credibility of the rest of that article into question). The Fed is the largest holder of US government debt, period:
["1. Federal Reserve and US Intragovernmental Holdings
That�s right, the biggest holder of US government debt is actually inside the United States. The Federal Reserve system of banks and other US intragovernmental holdings account for a stunning $4.785 trillion in US Treasury debt. This is the most recent number available (March 2009), which is down from the all-time high of $4.806 trillion in December 2008. However, this does not account for additional Federal Reserve investments occuring in the summer of 2009. About a decade ago, the total government holdings were "only" $2.5 trillion."]
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401?slide=16
Regardless, this is where things get much more complicated. The Fed is owned by the major commercial banks, all of which create Fed currency as debt out of thin air. Really the Fed is not just the institution proper, but the entire banking cartel of the US. Basically the Fed (and the legal tender laws that enable it) is the front that allows them to collectively monopolize the money supply. In this sense, as I mentioned before, ALL money denominated in dollars is owed to the bankers, whether to the Fed proper or to the commercial banks (and the private shareholders are all the same, it is a literal cartel). Therefore ALL dollars (Federal Reserve Notes) in existence, all collecting interest all over the world, are really debt owed back to the Fed banking cartel.
Even if I were to conceive that the Treasury gets the interest it pays on bonds to the Fed reimbursed (which I'm not even close to being prepared to accept without definitive evidence and/or further clarification - as it just makes no sense), the real point is that all our debt, whether public or private, is all owed back to the banking cartel. The banking cartel is in turn owned by a handful of very powerful people (like the Rockefellers), who keep their wealth and power hidden as best they can. This is where the problem lies.
It is the public that loses regardless in every case. It inevitably must be ruinous for us all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
