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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Yes, languages die out when people are given access to larger communities. With the WWW the 'community' is the whole world. Regional dialects will suffer hugely (there isn't anyone else to talk to!). If you only know French you're very limited...France and some parts of Africa. But if you know English you can communicate with America, England...but also... any other country that's learnt English (contemporarily Korea, China, and most of Europe). There is an in-built desire to communicate with other cultures...it may require Chinese, but English is (hugely) dominant now so it's logical to expect it to continue to be so.
My argument is that language and culture mimics economics. People want to be integrated, they want to communicate with as many people as possible. This is only possible with translation (already discussed and probably happening) or a universal language. People in Chile may prefer Spanish, but if they want to find out about football in England or tabletennis in China they are required to learn another language.
Integration demands standardization. (This is a major feature of capitalism) |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Julius wrote:
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| Family is at the heart of christianity. |
Well, the following passage has always been a little problematic for people who argue that "Christianity = family".
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Luke 9:59-62 (New International Version)
59He said to another man, "Follow me."
But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
60Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family."
62Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
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Of course, this was written before Christianity became a state cult, and thus put itself into the business of upholding the dominant mores in order to preserve the social order. But I've often wondered what bible-believing Christians make of that passage. It seems to me that there are only three options, none which would be really palatable for believers...
1. Jesus really did believe that it was more important for the guy to follow him than to go to his father's funeral, in which case Jesus must have had a pretty low opinion of family relations.
2. Jesus thought that family relations were important under normal conditions, but he also thought that the world was coming to an end very soon, so joining the right religious group was more important. This would prove Jesus, the supposed son of God, to be mistaken about a pretty basic cosmological fact.
3. Jesus was just engaged in a bit of hyperbole to make a point, and followed up his demand with "Hey, I was just joshin' ya buddy. Go to your father's funeral, and catch up with me later". In which case, we'd have to wonder why Luke didn't record this part of the conversation, given that he presumably wanted his readers to have a full understanding of what Jesus taught.
Personally, I lean towards the second explanation, since there is other evidence presented in the NT that Jesus did in fact expect the world to end within a short period of time. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Of course, this was written before Christianity became a state cult |
Zing! Amirite? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Julius wrote:
| Quote: |
| Family is at the heart of christianity. |
Well, the following passage has always been a little problematic for people who argue that "Christianity = family".
| Quote: |
Luke 9:59-62 (New International Version)
59He said to another man, "Follow me."
But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
60Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family."
62Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
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Of course, this was written before Christianity became a state cult, and thus put itself into the business of upholding the dominant mores in order to preserve the social order. But I've often wondered what bible-believing Christians make of that passage. It seems to me that there are only three options, none which would be really palatable for believers...
1. Jesus really did believe that it was more important for the guy to follow him than to go to his father's funeral, in which case Jesus must have had a pretty low opinion of family relations.
2. Jesus thought that family relations were important under normal conditions, but he also thought that the world was coming to an end very soon, so joining the right religious group was more important. This would prove Jesus, the supposed son of God, to be mistaken about a pretty basic cosmological fact.
3. Jesus was just engaged in a bit of hyperbole to make a point, and followed up his demand with "Hey, I was just joshin' ya buddy. Go to your father's funeral, and catch up with me later". In which case, we'd have to wonder why Luke didn't record this part of the conversation, given that he presumably wanted his readers to have a full understanding of what Jesus taught.
Personally, I lean towards the second explanation, since there is other evidence presented in the NT that Jesus did in fact expect the world to end within a short period of time. |
I think:
4. Jesus was emphasizing that the wider community of Christian believers would have a bond meant to go beyond the mere tribe and clan
I think 4 interprets it in the best light AND is also born out by history |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| It's also rather likely the 'Muslim offspring' of immigrants will tend towards atheism. |
All evidence points to a trend of increasing religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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I think:
4. Jesus was emphasizing that the wider community of Christian believers would have a bond meant to go beyond the mere tribe and clan
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Quite possibly. But that is sort of what I was saying in my third explanation. And it would raise the same difficulties for a biblical literalist.
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3. Jesus was just engaged in a bit of hyperbole to make a point, and followed up his demand with "Hey, I was just joshin' ya buddy. Go to your father's funeral, and catch up with me later". In which case, we'd have to wonder why Luke didn't record this part of the conversation, given that he presumably wanted his readers to have a full understanding of what Jesus taught.
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the collapse of Christianity is very relevant. That gave birth to liberalism and capitalism - and it is, rather, the poisoning of those that is the problem.
Churchill/Thatcherism - bastions of the rule of law and free trade - has become conservatism, whilst liberalism has been hijacked by far leftists - who embody the religious impulse in secular form - and the New Left have, in turn, found an ally in medieval theocratic fascists (presumably on the basis that "the enemy of my enemy......")
Liberal Muslims - liberal in the original sense, such as Ibn Warraq, Muslims Against Shareeah, and the Council of Ex-Muslims - find natural allies with Thatcherites - and possibly also literalist Christians. Together, we believe the violence endemic in Islam is a desperately urgent menace. Conservative Muslims and Western leftists, on the other hand, have only good things to say about Islam.
Our time is one of strange bedfellows. I'm totally for gay marriage and drug-legalization (and I am an atheist), but probably have more in common with Palin, Coulter and Limbaugh than with most on the left, in terms of Islamic fascism.
Hitchens and Bernard-Henri Levy (author of Left In Dark Times) say that the only "clash of civilizations" is within the Muslim World. Discuss. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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I think:
4. Jesus was emphasizing that the wider community of Christian believers would have a bond meant to go beyond the mere tribe and clan
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Quite possibly. But that is sort of what I was saying in my third explanation. And it would raise the same difficulties for a biblical literalist.
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3. Jesus was just engaged in a bit of hyperbole to make a point, and followed up his demand with "Hey, I was just joshin' ya buddy. Go to your father's funeral, and catch up with me later". In which case, we'd have to wonder why Luke didn't record this part of the conversation, given that he presumably wanted his readers to have a full understanding of what Jesus taught.
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I don't think Jesus was engaged in hyperbole at all. I think he really had that much zeal and charisma to say those things and mean them. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| It's also rather likely the 'Muslim offspring' of immigrants will tend towards atheism. |
All evidence points to a trend of increasing religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants. |
Evidence! Evidence is racist.
Haven't you heard about The Secret? You change Change Your Reality (CYR) with positive thinking. Every day when you wake up look in the mirror and visualize a trend towards atheism in islam. Send your vibrations out to the universe and you can Change History.
If that doesn't work then just fall back on proof by assertion. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's also rather likely the 'Muslim offspring' of immigrants will tend towards atheism. |
All evidence points to a trend of increasing religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants. |
Evidence! Evidence is racist.
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Nope. I haven't seen anyone claim racism on this or the other two threads about this same topic. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's also rather likely the 'Muslim offspring' of immigrants will tend towards atheism. |
All evidence points to a trend of increasing religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants. |
Evidence! Evidence is racist.
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Nope. I haven't seen anyone claim racism on this or the other two threads about this same topic. |
I think Vern and I have been around the block on this issue enough times to know the routine. Though, there has been a delightful tilt away from big bird/ddeubal style emotive leftism of late.
Did you miss butterfly's posts on the other thread? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Wilders makes half of Dutch Muslims want to emigrate
June 2009 Radio netherlands Worldwide
More than half of the people with Turkish and Moroccan backgrounds in the Netherlands say they would consider leaving the country due to the growing popularity of anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders. A third say they would definitely like to emigrate.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/wilders-makes-half-dutch-muslims-want-emigrate
...around 30 percent of the entire Dutch population say they are considering emigrating, for a wide range of reasons. However, only a tiny proportion of them ever actually take the plunge and move to another country. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Our world DOES have a dominant universal language- mathematics. And yes, THIS language truly drives things. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's also rather likely the 'Muslim offspring' of immigrants will tend towards atheism. |
All evidence points to a trend of increasing religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants. |
Evidence! Evidence is racist.
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Nope. I haven't seen anyone claim racism on this or the other two threads about this same topic. |
I think Vern and I have been around the block on this issue enough times to know the routine. Though, there has been a delightful tilt away from big bird/ddeubal style emotive leftism of late.
Did you miss butterfly's posts on the other thread? |
Yeah, he went a bit far, accusing you of being bloodthirsty. But that's not the same as racism.
But this forum hasn't seen such ddouchebaggery of late. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| But this forum hasn't seen such ddouchebaggery of late. |
I kind of miss ddeubel. Yeah, he had that annoying, self-announced euro-cosmopolitanism new age-iness about him, but I can recall a few threads on international topics where he was definitely in command of the hard facts pertaining to whatever was under discussion, morese than most of his opponents. He was sort of the Inspector Columbo of the forum, ie. he lulled you into this false sense of security by basically inviting you to write him off as a flake, but then he'd come in with some stone-cold empirical arguments that demanded an answer.
And I say all this as someone who got mocked pretty mercilessly by him on an off-topic thread that I wasn't even aware of until months later. (Can't say I was too crazy about that.) |
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