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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I spoke with a lawyer and asked about the drunken sex thing (conversationally, not looking to make any accusations). Alcohol does not alter your reality, it lowers your inhibitions. It isn't considered a date rape drug. If someone is passed out however, they are not in a position to give consent, so to have sex with them would be rape. If a person is "blacking out", their long term memory isn't working, but they are making decisions any drunk person would make. I think it is a deplorable thing to have sex with someone who is sloshed, but legally, if they are up and about, it is alright. If they are blacking out they may just assume they have passed out- that is an untidy situation, and I gooogled a case where some young man was falsly accused of rape under those circumstances. It's sort of like walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night- yes, you are allowed to do it but you are probably going to be mugged, beaten, or killed. Don't do it. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| A person can be falsely accused of lots of things. You wouldn't suggest theft no longer be a crime just because someone could be falsely accused of theft. No, because someone can steal something from you. But because you are not likely to be raped, you are prepared to take power away from people who have legitimate rape accusations. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone falsely accused of anything. I don't think the possibility of people being falsely accused (in and of itself a crime) justifies limiting a person's ability to make the accusation, or re-defining the crime. |
Late to the party,
we already covered this. You cannot compare rape to other crimes, because of the stigma attached to the accused.
Someone accused of theft and later exonerated doesn't go through 1% of what someone accused of rape and later exonerated does. While I wouldn't limit their ability to make an accusation, I'd limit their ability to do damage with it. As I said before, any time a rape, sexual assault, child molestation, etc thing came up, there should be a 100% ban on all details until its settled. This removes some motivation. The victim won't get as much attention (its been shown some women cry rape for the attention) and the victim won't be able to just hit and run. A weak rape case that gets dropped does almost as much damage as one that goes to trial. A woman who accuses someone of rape and then claims she's too scared to testify has already destroyed the guys life. throwing him in prison at that point might almost be a relief for him. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| A person can be falsely accused of lots of things. You wouldn't suggest theft no longer be a crime just because someone could be falsely accused of theft. No, because someone can steal something from you. But because you are not likely to be raped, you are prepared to take power away from people who have legitimate rape accusations. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone falsely accused of anything. I don't think the possibility of people being falsely accused (in and of itself a crime) justifies limiting a person's ability to make the accusation, or re-defining the crime. |
Late to the party,
we already covered this. You cannot compare rape to other crimes, because of the stigma attached to the accused.
Someone accused of theft and later exonerated doesn't go through 1% of what someone accused of rape and later exonerated does. While I wouldn't limit their ability to make an accusation, I'd limit their ability to do damage with it. As I said before, any time a rape, sexual assault, child molestation, etc thing came up, there should be a 100% ban on all details until its settled. This removes some motivation. The victim won't get as much attention (its been shown some women cry rape for the attention) and the victim won't be able to just hit and run. A weak rape case that gets dropped does almost as much damage as one that goes to trial. A woman who accuses someone of rape and then claims she's too scared to testify has already destroyed the guys life. throwing him in prison at that point might almost be a relief for him. |
How about being falsely accused of a murder charge?
I agree there should be a ban on all details for all crimes. I would like to know why there isn't already. What about women who are too scared to testify? What if the case is weak but there was rape? It's ok to publish the details of these crimes before trial, I take it. Children sometimes accuse people of abusing them as cries for attention. But if a man abused your child, you had a weak case and the man got off, would you want the details of the case published? |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| A person can be falsely accused of lots of things. You wouldn't suggest theft no longer be a crime just because someone could be falsely accused of theft. No, because someone can steal something from you. But because you are not likely to be raped, you are prepared to take power away from people who have legitimate rape accusations. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone falsely accused of anything. I don't think the possibility of people being falsely accused (in and of itself a crime) justifies limiting a person's ability to make the accusation, or re-defining the crime. |
Late to the party,
we already covered this. You cannot compare rape to other crimes, because of the stigma attached to the accused.
Someone accused of theft and later exonerated doesn't go through 1% of what someone accused of rape and later exonerated does. While I wouldn't limit their ability to make an accusation, I'd limit their ability to do damage with it. As I said before, any time a rape, sexual assault, child molestation, etc thing came up, there should be a 100% ban on all details until its settled. This removes some motivation. The victim won't get as much attention (its been shown some women cry rape for the attention) and the victim won't be able to just hit and run. A weak rape case that gets dropped does almost as much damage as one that goes to trial. A woman who accuses someone of rape and then claims she's too scared to testify has already destroyed the guys life. throwing him in prison at that point might almost be a relief for him. |
It's also the same with charges of sexual harrassment. I've heard of men having to move to a completely different part of the country after having been accused of sexual harrassmen by a female co worker. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| xingyiman wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| A person can be falsely accused of lots of things. You wouldn't suggest theft no longer be a crime just because someone could be falsely accused of theft. No, because someone can steal something from you. But because you are not likely to be raped, you are prepared to take power away from people who have legitimate rape accusations. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone falsely accused of anything. I don't think the possibility of people being falsely accused (in and of itself a crime) justifies limiting a person's ability to make the accusation, or re-defining the crime. |
Late to the party,
we already covered this. You cannot compare rape to other crimes, because of the stigma attached to the accused.
Someone accused of theft and later exonerated doesn't go through 1% of what someone accused of rape and later exonerated does. While I wouldn't limit their ability to make an accusation, I'd limit their ability to do damage with it. As I said before, any time a rape, sexual assault, child molestation, etc thing came up, there should be a 100% ban on all details until its settled. This removes some motivation. The victim won't get as much attention (its been shown some women cry rape for the attention) and the victim won't be able to just hit and run. A weak rape case that gets dropped does almost as much damage as one that goes to trial. A woman who accuses someone of rape and then claims she's too scared to testify has already destroyed the guys life. throwing him in prison at that point might almost be a relief for him. |
It's also the same with charges of sexual harrassment. I've heard of men having to move to a completely different part of the country after having been accused of sexual harrassmen by a female co worker. |
And women have had their lives destroyed by being falsely accused of child abuse. Do you suggest it's a good idea to limit the accuser's power in this case? |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| xingyiman wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| A person can be falsely accused of lots of things. You wouldn't suggest theft no longer be a crime just because someone could be falsely accused of theft. No, because someone can steal something from you. But because you are not likely to be raped, you are prepared to take power away from people who have legitimate rape accusations. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone falsely accused of anything. I don't think the possibility of people being falsely accused (in and of itself a crime) justifies limiting a person's ability to make the accusation, or re-defining the crime. |
Late to the party,
we already covered this. You cannot compare rape to other crimes, because of the stigma attached to the accused.
Someone accused of theft and later exonerated doesn't go through 1% of what someone accused of rape and later exonerated does. While I wouldn't limit their ability to make an accusation, I'd limit their ability to do damage with it. As I said before, any time a rape, sexual assault, child molestation, etc thing came up, there should be a 100% ban on all details until its settled. This removes some motivation. The victim won't get as much attention (its been shown some women cry rape for the attention) and the victim won't be able to just hit and run. A weak rape case that gets dropped does almost as much damage as one that goes to trial. A woman who accuses someone of rape and then claims she's too scared to testify has already destroyed the guys life. throwing him in prison at that point might almost be a relief for him. |
It's also the same with charges of sexual harrassment. I've heard of men having to move to a completely different part of the country after having been accused of sexual harrassmen by a female co worker. |
And women have had their lives destroyed by being falsely accused of child abuse. Do you suggest it's a good idea to limit the accuser's power in this case? |
Again - chip chip chip. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| If someone is passed out however, they are not in a position to give consent, so to have sex with them would be rape. If a person is "blacking out", their long term memory isn't working, but they are making decisions any drunk person would make. I think it is a deplorable thing to have sex with someone who is sloshed, but legally, if they are up and about, it is alright. If they are blacking out they may just assume they have passed out- that is an untidy situation, and I gooogled a case where some young man was falsly accused of rape under those circumstances. It's sort of like walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night- yes, you are allowed to do it but you are probably going to be mugged, beaten, or killed. Don't do it. |
Frankly, if someone has passed out, I'd call that necrophilia--almost. As for "blacking out?" Your lawyer friend isn't a neurologist. Blacking out is a form of transient global amnesia (TGA)--specifically short-term "episodic" or "explicit" memory. However what isn't impaired is "procedural" memory, which means the intended victim can do many things competently, such as play an electric guitar for the duration of a concert without a hitch or engage in sex without being aware of having given consent or not. Often, other people won't even know you've blacked out. This is one reason why these kinds of rape cases are really messy. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
And women have had their lives destroyed by being falsely accused of child abuse. Do you suggest it's a good idea to limit the accuser's power in this case? |
This is a completely different dynamic. Any stats as to the proportion of men to women? If not, this may not be the best example as far more men are accused of child abuse in divorce cases than the converse. Not to mention domestic abuse, etc. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How about being falsely accused of a murder charge? |
Its much more difficult to fake a murder than it is to fake a rape. There is also little motivation for the victim to die, just to bring false murder charges against someone.
| Quote: |
| And women have had their lives destroyed by being falsely accused of child abuse. Do you suggest it's a good idea to limit the accuser's power in this case? |
For all the women we see sleeping with male school students the vast majority of them are heralded as heroes with cries of "where was she when I was in high school?" Now look at what happens when a male teacher does the same thing, that should tell you all you need to know about the current culture regarding this in the west. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
And women have had their lives destroyed by being falsely accused of child abuse. Do you suggest it's a good idea to limit the accuser's power in this case? |
This is a completely different dynamic. Any stats as to the proportion of men to women? If not, this may not be the best example as far more men are accused of child abuse in divorce cases than the converse. Not to mention domestic abuse, etc. |
I also was scratching my head about that one. ABOC seems to have a real sore spot on the subject so I would just ignore her. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| As for "blacking out?" Your lawyer friend isn't a neurologist. Blacking out is a form of transient global amnesia (TGA)--specifically short-term "episodic" or "explicit" memory. However what isn't impaired is "procedural" memory, which means the intended victim can do many things competently, such as play an electric guitar for the duration of a concert without a hitch or engage in sex without being aware of having given consent or not. Often, other people won't even know you've blacked out. This is one reason why these kinds of rape cases are really messy. |
What I said doesn’t contradict any of that. My lawyer friend didn’t add the bit about blacking out, that was me. Are you a neurologist? Isn’t what I said correct (long term memory effected, but still acting as you would if you were sloshed). I’m pretty sure we agree.
| The Gipkik wrote: |
This is a completely different dynamic. Any stats as to the proportion of men to women? If not, this may not be the best example as far more men are accused of child abuse in divorce cases than the converse. Not to mention domestic abuse, etc. |
Until we develop a third universally recognized gender, I’m going to have to mix up gender dynamics to come up with legally similar situations. What you arguing is pretty much proving my point- because rape is a gendered crime we have a hard time assessing it as a crime in and of itself. When you speak to a man about theft or murder, he can sympathize more easily with the victim, because he will most likely be seen as a victim in this dynamic. But if you are talking about rape, a man is most likely going to sympathize with the accused, because if he is ever in a dynamic where the occurrence of a rape is in question he is likely going to be the one accused.
Comparing stats of men accused to women accused might just elicit more men are perpetrators of child abuse.
Domestic abuse is again a gendered crime, where men are most often the perpetrators. Same perception problem as rape.
| crossmr wrote: |
Its much more difficult to fake a murder than it is to fake a rape. There is also little motivation for the victim to die, just to bring false murder charges against someone.
For all the women we see sleeping with male school students the vast majority of them are heralded as heroes with cries of "where was she when I was in high school?" Now look at what happens when a male teacher does the same thing, that should tell you all you need to know about the current culture regarding this in the west. |
So it’s ok to falsely accuse someone of murder because it is difficult? Presumably it is never the victim doing the accusing in the case of murder, what with them being dead and all.
Those women are criminals, should be treated like criminals, and society is starting to pick up on that. Think about single women of low income falsely accused of abuse if you’re looking for an example you can sympathize with more easily
I’m starting to get the idea no one is interested in rape as a crime in and of itself, but are more interested that women are most often the accusers (because they are most often the victims).
And there is no chip on my shoulder here, I’m just discussing something and I assume no one else is upset either. Just wasting time on the internet like everyone else. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
What I said doesn�t contradict any of that. My lawyer friend didn�t add the bit about blacking out, that was me. Are you a neurologist? Isn�t what I said correct (long term memory effected, but still acting as you would if you were sloshed). I�m pretty sure we agree. |
I'm not a neurologist, but my source is. We do agree, but how is long-term memory going to be affected during a TGA, which only last a few hours at most? This is specifically short-term--an entirely different category of memory with a different neuronal network and locus.
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
What you're arguing is pretty much proving my point- because rape is a gendered crime we have a hard time assessing it as a crime in and of itself. |
This was true, once upon a time, but what is hard to assess now, intractable really, is whether the line was crossed AND the tendency for people to prevaricate and forget. Then of course, there are degrees of rape. This one is highly contentious. Perpetrators of date rape should not be prosecuted with the severity deemed necessary for brutal rape with forced penetration and life long trauma. Especially when it involves children. Then there is the further issue of psychological effects. Some women are extremely affected by date rape, to the point of having post traumatic stress syndrome. Others don't worry about it too much. It's so messy and it is a case by case situation. I don't envy the adjudicators.
Last edited by The Gipkik on Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe666 wrote: |
earthbound14 wrote:
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| I for one think a woman has the right to say no at any time and thus stop the act (however far one may be into it). |
Fine. But if she has an alterior motive such as vendetta, money etc., she may decide to press charges anyway. Maybe she set the man up for exactly that reason. This scenario has happened to male teachers plenty of times!!
earthbound14 wrote:
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| I do, that's what courts, judges and lawyers are for. |
Some poster already stated this, but I will reiterate said point. How could a judge and jury truly know what went on during the escapade in question. Unless there is sufficient physical evidence, I just don't buy it. Even physical evidence could be manufactured to further one's agenda. |
you are asking the age old question and the one no court could ever answer.
This is the problem with not being mind readers....people can decieve us, and they can decieve the courts. That's why good laywers often know that it's not always about law, but how they spin the case. Kinda sucky, but it's an imperfect system. I would prefer that there were laws in place to protect women from rape even if that meant that from time to time they were abused.
Of course at the end of the day, a women who just says no, but the man proceeds with no further refusal should be treated far lighter than a case that has evidents showing beating and force.
There are many cases where women simlpy say no, then do nothing and a guy finds out later she didn't want it and has decided to claim rape. Women should not use the law to resolve a personal issue. It's up to the police and the courts to see this, and for men to be aware of this before they do anything with a woman (woman have to be careful about going home with a guy who might rape them...)
This is why men should be prepared to stop no matter what. It's not much to ask and it will cover your ass. If you are too stupid to manage this....you have problems.
It means that men and women need to communicate clearly and listen to each other.
If people get drunk...well that's another story. Women should be careful around drunk men, and men should be careful when they are drunk.
That's life. You drive drunk, you might have a car accident or get in a fight....you might end up finding your self in court defending yourself against rape too. I drink a lot, but none of these things have happened to me...if anything drinking, being sociable, and meeting girls who are drinking has helped me get laid a lot and I've not once had a girl who was angry about it.
I had a friend whose ex girlfriend decided to claim he had beat her when he broke up with her...but he was being a bit of a dim wit by dating such a slag....we all knew it, but it took him a little longer to see it and he almost paid the price....but the police saw through it and he was out having drinks with his new (and much better girl) within hours.
There is no point in gettig wrapped up in too many hypothetical questions here. The fact is, rape and violence toward women is an issue. Men are bigger and more capable of this, so women need a little extra protecting. It's the right thing to do. Any man, who claims to be a real man, should stand up and support laws that protect women (perhaps his women) from men who are slime, even if that means sometimes we are the victims of women who are slime. That's life. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
This was true, once upon a time, but what is hard to assess now, intractable really, is whether the line was crossed AND the tendency for people to prevaricate and forget. Then of course, there are degrees of rape. This one is highly contentious. Perpetrators of date rape should not be prosecuted with the severity deemed necessary for brutal rape with forced penetration and life long trauma. Especially when it involves children. Then there is the further issue of psychological effects. Some women are extremely effected by date rape, to the point of having post traumatic stress syndrome. Others don't worry about it too much. It's so messy and it is a case by case situation. I don't envy the adjudicators. |
Are you asking because you want to discuss blackouts? I'm interested and I did a little reading on them a few years ago, but time has paired down the details of the research to some basic facts. During a blackout you perform like any old sloshed person so no one around you knows you are blacking out, and the events that occur during the blackout are lost from your memory forever. If you want to know if someone is in the process of blacking out, give them some easily remembered detail (a number, a day of the week) and ask them what it was five minutes later. I can completely see how someone can think they passed out during sex when they were actually blacked out. It is a tragic occurrence, but while people are still raping women who are passed out drunk it is a possibility. Blackouts are interesting.
I would say people are more likely to be clear and truthful in the year 2009 than they would have been once upon a time (before the sixties feminist movement, maybe). Women are increasingly aware of what rape is and how to respond when you do not want to have sex. Also, women are enjoying a greater degree of power relative to what they experienced in the past (though I would argue far less than men now). They can express their desires with a greater ease than they once could. There are degrees of assault, but rape is rape. When clear consent is not given, but sex occurs, rape just happened. What degree of sexual assault that is can be determined by courts. Amorous no’s are no’s- clear consent was not given.
I am talking about this like it occurred in Canada, but there is a greater power difference between men and women in Korea. Korean society is more patriarchal and authoritarian in general. Avoiding all value judgments, it is what it is. If a woman manages to utter even an amorous no raised in a patriarchal authoritarian society, then she is being clearer about her desires than another woman who, raised in a similar way, might be more inclined to submit to a higher authority. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| If people get drunk...well that's another story. Women should be careful around drunk men, and men should be careful when they are drunk. |
Drunk women are never at fault in your world? Only drunk men are responsible for their actions! Now we see the bias very clearly. |
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