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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Question: What caused the GI subway incident then?
From everything I've read, the incident occured in 2002, after the 2 girls got run over. There were massive anti-U.S rallies occuring. A subway full of Koreans travelling to a rally went after 3 U.S GIs who were in the subway car.
So what exactly caused the ruckus then?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just asking for your take on it. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| After all we just agreed that the average normal Korean person doesn't go around attacking people, didn't we? So these people that did attack...can't be average or normal. Therefore "loony tunes".[/b] |
It just hit me that you resemble those overly protective parents. The parents are so defensive of their kids that when their kids do something wrong, the parent automatically says "my kid didn't do that. He's a good kid. It must have been somebody else's kid. If my son did that, then he must have had a good reason"
You just can't seem to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, some normal kids do rotten things.
In this situation, with all that was going on in Korea in 2002, isn't it possible that regular sane people made errors in judgement?
It happened in Massachusetts in the 1600s, the Salem area.[/quote] |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| After all we just agreed that the average normal Korean person doesn't go around attacking people, didn't we? So these people that did attack...can't be average or normal. Therefore "loony tunes".[/b] |
It just hit me that you resemble those overly protective parents. The parents are so defensive of their kids that when their kids do something wrong, the parent automatically says "my kid didn't do that. He's a good kid. It must have been somebody else's kid. If my son did that, then he must have had a good reason"
You just can't seem to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, some normal kids do rotten things.
In this situation, with all that was going on in Korea in 2002, isn't it possible that regular sane people made errors in judgement?
It happened in Massachusetts in the 1600s, the Salem area. |
[/quote]
Salem Witch Trials. Spanish Inquisition. Germany 1938. Jim Crow South. What do all of these have in common? Each of them is considered by certain Dave's posters to be what is going on here in Korea. What else do they have in common? Nothing in common with what is going on in South Korea right now.
Guys if you want to make the argument that Korea is racist, don't compare it to the Salem Witch Trials or Germany 38. That just makes your judgment suspect. I know some skeletons in the ground that would gladly trade what we 'endure' here in Korea with their life experience of Witch Trials/Genocide.
As for what the subway incident and such. That was individual knuckleheads working together to be morons. Remember two girls did get run over by a tank from another nation's army. You do that anywhere and people tend to get a little emotional and protesty. I mean if some U.S. tank in Guatemala or Poland or Kenya or The Netherlands or Nepal was involved in an incident like that and there was a base in that country, you don't think there would be the same kind of shenanigans?
Kids+Tank+Squish=Public Outcry. Public Outcry=Some will be Extremists.
And quite frankly it's a good sign that people did get a little upset (although rioting and violence is bad) that two girls got ran over by a tank, regardless of if it was an accident or negligence. I mean if you're just purely cold about such a thing then you have no soul.
To say nothing else of the host of other issues and motivations that were part of the influence here. It wasn't just the media.
To repeat myself AGAIN, blaming the media is like blaming rap music or video games. I for one put little stock in them and a lot more in the "he was one crazy/stupid individual."
EDIT- I should add that doing things like screaming 'Witch Trials' and 'Jim Crow' is the EXACT SAME THING as what the Korea Times does. Over-blowing the situation and exaggerating the dangers and maliciousness of the other side. To sit and criticize the Korea Times for its fear-mongering writing while writing things comparing our situation to Salem 1600 is just ludicrous. The way to answer hysteria is with patience, calm, dignity, and sobriety. Not with MORE hysteria and panic and fear-mongering. |
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Ah the "tank incident." At the end of the day it was just a traffic accident. Nobody in Korea seemd to care much about this accident while the World Cup was going on. So they waited weeks to be outraged and then started their protesting. Must be nice to be able to hold in that pure unadulterated anger for weeks and weeks and then unleash it when it doesnt affect soccer games.
Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstates that nobody cares one iota about this. Unless the US army is responsible and the World Cup is over.
Blame the media? Hell yes. Do you even know what the media in Korea did to fan the flames during the tank incident. It was disgusting and I lost a lot of respect for some of my Korean friends who believed that nonsense. 1." The tank drivers were laughing and they repeatedly backed up and over the girls again and again." 2." The US Army never apologized." ( The US commander apologized immediatley and visited the familes immediately.) 3. " George Bush apologized but he didnt really mean it"
Those familes recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars each in settlements. The irony that was lost on Koreans at the time was that if hit and killed by a Korean driver they would have recieved 10 or 15 million tops. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| benji wrote: |
Ah the "tank incident." At the end of the day it was just a traffic accident. Nobody in Korea seemd to care much about this accident while the World Cup was going on. So they waited weeks to be outraged and then started their protesting. Must be nice to be able to hold in that pure unadulterated anger for weeks and weeks and then unleash it when it doesnt affect soccer games.
Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstates that nobody cares one iota about this. Unless the US army is responsible and the World Cup is over.
Blame the media? Hell yes. Do you even know what the media in Korea did to fan the flames during the tank incident. It was disgusting and I lost a lot of respect for some of my Korean friends who believed that nonsense. 1." The tank drivers were laughing and they repeatedly backed up and over the girls again and again." 2." The US Army never apologized." ( The US commander apologized immediatley and visited the familes immediately.) 3. " George Bush apologized but he didnt really mean it"
Those familes recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars each in settlements. The irony that was lost on Koreans at the time was that if hit and killed by a Korean driver they would have recieved 10 or 15 million tops. |
Geez speaking about anger and froth...
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| Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstates that nobody cares one iota about this. Unless the US army is responsible and the World Cup is over. |
How many kids in Korea are killed by handguns? And what percentage of Korean children lack health insurance coverage compared to a certain 'enlightened' nation that supposedly cares more about its children?
Do parents in the U.S. not care about child safety because there are more handgun deaths. Do Koreans not care about child safety because there are more car accident deaths? The answer to both is obviously no.
Call me crazy but when it comes to writing a post complaining about people who exaggerate the demons of other groups of people and misconstruing facts, a good rule of thumb is NOT TO DEMONIZE OTHER PEOPLE AND MISCONSTRUE FACTS. Good grief. Can you not see how you are engaging in exactly that which you are protesting against?
Now did the media fan the flames or did it respond to what its customers wanted to hear? That's what media does. It here's people complaining about crime and then it runs 6 page stories and a front cover spread about "Chaos in our Streets?" or "Local Nightclubs Out of Control?" "The Pig Flu- In America?" To be sure the media did act irresponsibly. But that is the media. Accusing the media of playing to people's emotions is like accusing a casino of being greedy. I'm sure there were some level headed voices. Probably some pro-conservative and U.S. tied publications tried to be the 'voice of reason'. But of course if they do that the irrational public may boycott them or declare them 'baggy-eyed Bolsheviks' and give them the Dixie Chix treatment. Besides the media didn't make people throw rocks or close their doors. Individual people made that choice.
One should remember not to turn into the thing they hate.... |
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| benji wrote: |
Ah the "tank incident." At the end of the day it was just a traffic accident. Nobody in Korea seemd to care much about this accident while the World Cup was going on. So they waited weeks to be outraged and then started their protesting. Must be nice to be able to hold in that pure unadulterated anger for weeks and weeks and then unleash it when it doesnt affect soccer games.
Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstates that nobody cares one iota about this. Unless the US army is responsible and the World Cup is over.
Blame the media? Hell yes. Do you even know what the media in Korea did to fan the flames during the tank incident. It was disgusting and I lost a lot of respect for some of my Korean friends who believed that nonsense. 1." The tank drivers were laughing and they repeatedly backed up and over the girls again and again." 2." The US Army never apologized." ( The US commander apologized immediatley and visited the familes immediately.) 3. " George Bush apologized but he didnt really mean it"
Those familes recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars each in settlements. The irony that was lost on Koreans at the time was that if hit and killed by a Korean driver they would have recieved 10 or 15 million tops. |
Geez speaking about anger and froth...
| Quote: |
| Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstates that nobody cares one iota about this. Unless the US army is responsible and the World Cup is over. |
How many kids in Korea are killed by handguns? And what percentage of Korean children lack health insurance coverage compared to a certain 'enlightened' nation that supposedly cares more about its children?
Do parents in the U.S. not care about child safety because there are more handgun deaths. Do Koreans not care about child safety because there are more car accident deaths? The answer to both is obviously no.
Call me crazy but when it comes to writing a post complaining about people who exaggerate the demons of other groups of people and misconstruing facts, a good rule of thumb is NOT TO DEMONIZE OTHER PEOPLE AND MISCONSTRUE FACTS. Good grief. Can you not see how you are engaging in exactly that which you are protesting against?
Now did the media fan the flames or did it respond to what its customers wanted to hear? That's what media does. It here's people complaining about crime and then it runs 6 page stories and a front cover spread about "Chaos in our Streets?" or "Local Nightclubs Out of Control?" "The Pig Flu- In America?" To be sure the media did act irresponsibly. But that is the media. Accusing the media of playing to people's emotions is like accusing a casino of being greedy. I'm sure there were some level headed voices. Probably some pro-conservative and U.S. tied publications tried to be the 'voice of reason'. But of course if they do that the irrational public may boycott them or declare them 'baggy-eyed Bolsheviks' and give them the Dixie Chix treatment. Besides the media didn't make people throw rocks or close their doors. Individual people made that choice.
One should remember not to turn into the thing they hate.... |
Im not angry and frothing one bit. Just telling what happened back then since you dont seem to know.So you are saying that Koreans wanted to hear blatant lies about the tank incident and not the truth. Opinion pieces in newspapers are one thing, complete falsification of the facts another. People cant form informed opinions if they get complete lies from the media. The media didnt force Koreans to throw rocks, but they did completely lied about what happened, so Koreans became angered over outright untruths.
If your sister tells you that her boyfriend raped her, and you go out and hurt that guy, and then you find out it was totally false, do you say " well my sister didnt make me hurt her boyfrind afterall"?
Your analogy of US guns laws and health insurance miss the mark. Many Americans want stricter gun laws all the time. After the Virginia Tech massacre, did Americans hit the streets protesting against Koreans, kidnap Koreans off the streets, force them to read apologies, refuse them entrance into places of business? Gun laws in the US, as weak as they may be, were enforced before Virginia and continue to be enforced after. Can you say the same about traffic laws in Korea in regards to the tank incident?? |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| benji: Well said, mate. |
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Goon-Yang
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Duh
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:12 am Post subject: |
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How dare they say such racist stuff as that. MAn I love that hae-jung gook I just ate. Strange how 3 out of the 4 servers were Chinese...
Wait a min! Most of the restaurants around here have Chinese servants...er servers.
When they say foreign workers they mean 3-D/restaurant workers...not white students teaching English. The percentage of western foreign students here is tiny compared to the 100-500 Chinese students on each campus. My uni isn't that big and we have about 300 of them.
Chill people. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Salem Witch Trials. Spanish Inquisition. Germany 1938. Jim Crow South. What do all of these have in common? Each of them is considered by certain Dave's posters to be what is going on here in Korea. What else do they have in common? Nothing in common with what is going on in South Korea right now. |
ModEdit, you absolutely missed the entire point of my post. I hate to sound like TUM, but your reading comprehension really sucks. I'm not saying that the Korea of today is similar to Salem of the 1600s or Germany in the late 30s. I'm talking about a couple of months of insanity in the year 2002. Do you actually read or do you just assume??
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| Guys if you want to make the argument that Korea is racist, don't compare it to the Salem Witch Trials or Germany 38. That just makes your judgment suspect. I know some skeletons in the ground that would gladly trade what we 'endure' here in Korea with their life experience of Witch Trials/Genocide. |
Again! Where on Earth did I say that Korea is racist????? Korea isn't racist, it's not. I never said it was. ModEdit (Filter dodging is still a violation of the TOS)! ModEdit and actually read the words that are on your screen. Not once did I state that Korea was racist.
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| As for what the subway incident and such. That was individual knuckleheads working together to be morons. Remember two girls did get run over by a tank from another nation's army. You do that anywhere and people tend to get a little emotional and protesty. I mean if some U.S. tank in Guatemala or Poland or Kenya or The Netherlands or Nepal was involved in an incident like that and there was a base in that country, you don't think there would be the same kind of shenanigans? |
Yes, that was a bunch of knuckleheads in that subway. But why were so many knuckleheads in that subway at that moment of time? From what I gathered, they were going to an anti-US rally/demonstration. Why was there a rally? Because a whole bunch of people got pissed off at the U.S. Why were they pissed off? Because the U.S acidentally ran over two girls. Oh, wait a minute. That's not what these knuckleheads were told. They were told that the girls were murdered.
So if one actually tried to connect the dots, you could begin with the false information presented on the news (the deaths weren't an accident, they were murdered), which lead to outrage and anger, which lead to anti-US rallies, which lead to knuckleheads boarding a subway with 3 GIs and in the end, 1 GI was kidnapped and dragged to the rally and forced to apologize on film. so if you get rid of the false news stories, there very likely wouldn't have been such outrage and there wouldn't have been those rallies and the 3 GIs wouldn't have been chased by a mob of angry Koreans.
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Kids+Tank+Squish=Public Outcry. Public Outcry=Some will be Extremists.
And quite frankly it's a good sign that people did get a little upset (although rioting and violence is bad) that two girls got ran over by a tank, regardless of if it was an accident or negligence. I mean if you're just purely cold about such a thing then you have no soul. |
This deserves another thread altogether, but where is all the outrage when a Korean kid is run over by a regular old hyundai? Anyways, I'm not even gonna comment any further. Just check the OECD stats for yourself.
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To say nothing else of the host of other issues and motivations that were part of the influence here. It wasn't just the media.
To repeat myself AGAIN, blaming the media is like blaming rap music or video games. I for one put little stock in them and a lot more in the "he was one crazy/stupid individual." |
You absolutely missed the mark here. I'm not blaming the media. I'm blaming the LIES that were presented to the public BY the media. They had ex-Korean military guys analyzing tank treads on tv and they concluded that the tank actually backed up and ran over the girls twice. All based on photos of the treads. They claimed that there was no apology. The media fed lies to the public. That's the issue. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Geez speaking about anger and froth...
How many kids in Korea are killed by handguns? And what percentage of Korean children lack health insurance coverage compared to a certain 'enlightened' nation that supposedly cares more about its children? |
How on Earth did the U.S get pulled into this.....
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| Do parents in the U.S. not care about child safety because there are more handgun deaths. Do Koreans not care about child safety because there are more car accident deaths? The answer to both is obviously no. |
You missed the point. He's referring to the fact that kids in Korea are run over almost daily/weekly (I'm basing this on OECD figures), basically by drivers who disregard traffic laws. When a Korean kid is run over by a Hyundai, there are no protests or outrage. But when the vehicle has a U.S license plate, there's massive protests and outrage.
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| Now did the media fan the flames or did it respond to what its customers wanted to hear? That's what media does. It here's people complaining about crime and then it runs 6 page stories and a front cover spread about "Chaos in our Streets?" or "Local Nightclubs Out of Control?" "The Pig Flu- In America?" To be sure the media did act irresponsibly. But that is the media. Accusing the media of playing to people's emotions is like accusing a casino of being greedy. |
The Media was feeding Lies to the public. Is that what they're supposed to do? Print lies?
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| I'm sure there were some level headed voices. Probably some pro-conservative and U.S. tied publications tried to be the 'voice of reason'. But of course if they do that the irrational public may boycott them or declare them 'baggy-eyed Bolsheviks' and give them the Dixie Chix treatment. Besides the media didn't make people throw rocks or close their doors. Individual people made that choice. |
I was gonna bring up the rape example as well, but Benji beat me to it. So basically, if your sister tells you she got raped, the next thing you do is bash the other guys face in.
Here's a summary for you. Free of "racism" or "blaming the media".
Somebody said that people don't just beat up others based on reading news stories.
2002
2 girls get run over. It was an accident. Apologies were made, money was distributed.
Due to influence from certain special interest groups, mainstream Korean media present information that was false.
This lead to rallies and outrage.
Violent incidents occur against members of the US army.
A Col. gets attacked by 3 guys and 3 GIs get mobbed in a subway. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| I'm talking about a couple of months of insanity in the year 2002. Do you actually read or do you just assume?? |
Exactly, it was a couple months of 'insanity' in 2002. Like you said, some regular sane people made errors in judgment.
Although this was in response to the line in your post, yours wasn't the first, or even the most strongly in support of that kind of analogy. But those kinds of analogies have been made multiple times on these forums and it is just plain silly. The reason I don't automatically agree with the Korea is bad crowd (the expectation that I should is disturbing) is due in part to the hysterical tone some people take.
But no you weren't being racist nor were you saying Koreans are racist. But then again the 'Witch Trial' analogy is at 'claiming Koreans are racists' precipice. Some Koreans are racist. Some are not. Some don't care. Some are ruled by the emotions of the moment. Some are really nice people. Some are all about the money. Just like folks everywhere around the world.
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| You absolutely missed the mark here. I'm not blaming the media. I'm blaming the LIES that were presented to the public BY the media |
?????
Anyways I think your first post was in fact largely on target- A group of otherwise normal people were knuckleheads that time.
Yes there was an ugly vibe, it carried over event to America. I remember telling more than a few of my K-Friends "Well if you don't like American help, have fun on your own. Say hi to Kim Jong Il for me."
But looking back I was being kind of condescending to them and ignoring a key point- Two girls got ran over by a tank and that really sucks, and it wasn't that the tankers did anything wrong, it was just that there was a miscommunication in showing regret over the incident. The U.S. mentality to such a thing is to go legalistic and then to offer financial compensation. But that doesn't always come across in the best light to some people, particularly those form other cultures.
It is close to the same vein as the outrage you get when the U.S. accidentally bombs a house in Afghanistan- 'we're sorry that this family died, our operations ar conducted with the utmost regard to limiting civilian casualties, however we had reports of Ahkbar Bin-Beardi in the area. We will provide compensation to the victims families." To some people that doesn't sit right. Yeah maybe they did nothing wrong, but their attitude doesn't indicate it.
Sure the K-reaction was wrong and over the top. But maybe we as Americans can learn something to and not just play the legalistic justification and payoff card.
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| If your sister tells you that her boyfriend raped her, and you go out and hurt that guy, and then you find out it was totally false, do you say " well my sister didnt make me hurt her boyfrind afterall"? |
No, no she didn't. You made the choice to go and hurt her boyfriend. You're the one who decided to do the things you did and to take action.
Something similar once happened as a child in my life. I beat up a kid because of something people said he had said about me. Turns out he hadn't said anything and that it was a manipulation. The school tried to tell me that I was somewhat instigated and I wasn't wholly responsible. When I got home my parents told me that that was a load of B.S. and that I chose to do that. You know what, they were right.
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| Gun laws in the US, as weak as they may be, were enforced before Virginia and continue to be enforced after. Can you say the same about traffic laws in Korea in regards to the tank incident?? |
Are you seriously trying to claim that there isn't an illegal gun problem in the United States and that there is quality enforcement going on? If you are going to cite the 'rampant' traffic crime in Korea and then say the U.S. is a model for law enforcement based on its quality of gun control, I don't know what to say....
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
close to 500,000 people were victims of gun crime in the United States in 2005. That's ONE YEAR.
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| did Americans hit the streets protesting against Koreans, kidnap Koreans off the streets, force them to read apologies, refuse them entrance into places of business? |
Nope, and good for them. But there were similar incidents to the bar fights and such. I personally know several Korean (and non-Koreans) who were caught up in the hysteria, just as some Arab-Americans were as well. But I don't think the U.S. is a racist country because of those incidents, just that some people in the U.S. are racists, and some are normal folks who just had an off day.
As for racial violence and media stuff there is this minor incident called the 92 L.A. riots and the Cincinnati riots.
Look my bottom line is saying "On the one hand you are right, the media is garbage, people are morons, things could be better. But my other point is 'duh the media is garbage', 'duh people act like morons' and if you are going to try and change those things- constantly posting articles about the Korea Times and getting it more hits on their webpage and using hysterical language and fanning the flames of over-exaggeration in return is not going to accomplish your goal.
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How dare they say such racist stuff as that. MAn I love that hae-jung gook I just ate. Strange how 3 out of the 4 servers were Chinese...
Wait a min! Most of the restaurants around here have Chinese servants...er servers.
When they say foreign workers they mean 3-D/restaurant workers...not white students teaching English. The percentage of western foreign students here is tiny compared to the 100-500 Chinese students on each campus. My uni isn't that big and we have about 300 of them. |
Interesting point- where are all the planned marches and outrage and constant web article posting in regards to the treatment of third world laborers here. You know the people who really do deal with real crap and don't get decent salaries and 1 bedroom apts free of charge. The people who's main issue isn't their drug-testing and having kids say hello to them.
I mean its 'Dude, when I was at the bar getting drunk and minding my own business (ok, sure) these dudes just started to beat on me' vs. 'All the money I was sending home to my starving family was instead being embezzled'
As I said before we can work on bumping us up from the 90th percentile to the 91st OR maybe we can look at whats going on with others who are at the 10th percentile and try to help them get to the 20th.
K-racism= drunk ajosshi screaming at a white guy with a K-girl. Exploitation of third-world foreign labor.
Western Racism= Me, me, me, me- ohhh yeah the Filipinos here... hey lets bring them into the conversation so we can use them to help our rights crusade. Makes us look diverse. Heck, I'm doing it right now- using 'them' to help my argument. Do I really care about them? Do we? |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| But no you weren't being racist nor were you saying Koreans are racist. But then again the 'Witch Trial' analogy is at 'claiming Koreans are racists' precipice. Some Koreans are racist. Some are not. Some don't care. Some are ruled by the emotions of the moment. Some are really nice people. Some are all about the money. Just like folks everywhere around the world. |
The Salem analogy is about lies and consequences. Accuse your enemy of being a witch and your enemy would probably end up under a boulder or something. In 2002, accuse the U.S army of murdering 2 girls and you get the subway incident.
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| You absolutely missed the mark here. I'm not blaming the media. I'm blaming the LIES that were presented to the public BY the media |
I don't blame rap or videogames or the media for violence. But in this situation, the media (influenced by NGOs) provided information that was absolutely false which lead to all the insanity.
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But looking back I was being kind of condescending to them and ignoring a key point- Two girls got ran over by a tank and that really sucks, and it wasn't that the tankers did anything wrong, it was just that there was a miscommunication in showing regret over the incident. The U.S. mentality to such a thing is to go legalistic and then to offer
| Quote: |
| financial compensation |
. But that doesn't always come across in the best light to some people, particularly those form other cultures |
What do you mean by miscommunication? The Army apologized right away and followed Korean protocol. Offering financial compensation is actually the proper Koraen custom in that situation.
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Sure the K-reaction was wrong and over the top. But maybe we as Americans can learn something to and not just play the legalistic justification and payoff card. |
I'm not American so I probably shouldn't comment on any of it.
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| If your sister tells you that her boyfriend raped her, and you go out and hurt that guy, and then you find out it was totally false, do you say " well my sister didnt make me hurt her boyfrind afterall"? |
No, no she didn't. You made the choice to go and hurt her boyfriend. You're the one who decided to do the things you did and to take action. |
Here's another example. The 6 o'clock news says that a hurricane is coming. The weather is bad, but there's actually no hurricane. The news runs the story anyways. You go out and buy supplies, build a shelter and
the next day, you find out there's no hurricane and you wasted your money. Who's to blame for the wasted money? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How on Earth did the U.S get pulled into this..... |
| benji wrote: |
| Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstrates that nobody cares one iota about this. |
The guy tried to claim that people in Korea don't claim about child safety due to traffic enforcement. An argument as tasteless and baseless as that warrants at least a mention of a)gun crime and b)Health coverage. Every nation has a way in which it fails. This isn't a uniquely Korean phenomenon, but the poster was insinuating that it was.
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| When a Korean kid is run over by a Hyundai, there are no protests or outrage. But when the vehicle has a U.S license plate, there's massive protests and outrage. |
Ahhh but how many of those Korean kids run over by other Koreans were run over by a tank?
I think even you can tell there is something emotionally unsettling by getting run over by a tank, hence this-
| Quote: |
| when the vehicle has a U.S license plate |
Why not just say tank? It wasn't some kid getting run over by a G.I. in a Hyundai. It was a tank. People are going to be more loopy and emotional because we're talking about an Army tank. Now we all now that fundamentally it is the same, but when its someone you know and its someone else's army in your own country, people tend to get touchy about those sorts of things....
I'm sure if the exact same incident happened in Germany you might not see as irrational a reaction, but there would definitely be a section of
society that would make things a little uncomfortable for Americans there AND yes, I'm sure more than a few newspapers would report bad facts.
| Quote: |
| The Media was feeding Lies to the public. Is that what they're supposed to do? Print lies? |
No, but it IS what they DO. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying that's how it is. Why is it like this? Because there is freedom of the press. And when you have freedom of the press you have a press that is driven by the market. What is the market? Violence, Sex, and Scandal. Truth is only somewhat necessary. If you want a media that has more strictly enforced standards and doesn't sensationalize events or report only negative stories then you cannot have freedom of the press.
Are you seriously that naive to think that the media is some sort of benevolent truth-reporting organization? Look at the content- all negative and lurid.
What's a big story? Inside information of a scandalous nature. Is it always true? no.
One need only look at the history of reporting around the globe, and just in this decade mind you, to see countless examples of crappy journalism. Hence why public confidence in the news media is at an all time low.
And the reason the media sometimes prints sensationalist innuendos? Because that is what sells.
Also before you get all huffy over bad journalism- just remember it ain't the easiest job to get a story, and the last thing you want is for someone else to get t eh story first and beat you to it. Again this is a consequence of the media's free-market. This is why you get exaggerated and false stories. Our market for news makes speed more important than accuracy. If you don't like that stop using 'instant' media outlets. Support state review of all journalism and government editors.
| Quote: |
2 girls get run over. It was an accident. Apologies were made, money was distributed.
Due to influence from certain special interest groups, mainstream Korean media present information that was false.
This lead to rallies and outrage.
Violent incidents occur against members of the US army.
A Col. gets attacked by 3 guys and 3 GIs get mobbed in a subway. |
But the media didn't make the people DO THAT. Why?
1)Causation- If the Media DID cause that, then EVERYONE who was exposed to those stories would have committed acts of violence. Since everyone who was exposed to that story DID NOT commit an act of violence then the claim that the media causes violence is false.
2)Okay so maybe it didn't cause it, just that there is a correlation. During that time people who were exposed to the media reports had tens or hundreds of thousands of interactions with foreigners. Out of those thousands of interactions only a tiny number resulted in violence. Only 2 of which were 'significant'. This does not even reach the threshold of correlation.
3)What in the end we are talking about is personal responsibility. Does the media make you attack someone or is that your own choice? Do you make the decision to go and rob someone or is that 'society'? At what point are people individuals responsible for their own actions.
| Quote: |
Here's another example. The 6 o'clock news says that a hurricane is coming. The weather is bad, but there's actually no hurricane. The news runs the story anyways. You go out and buy supplies, build a shelter and
the next day, you find out there's no hurricane and you wasted your money. Who's to blame for the wasted money? |
Uhm, remember Katrina? Why did many people not evacuate or take it serioiusly? Because for many years you would get 'Hurricane Alerts' and people might evacuate, but usually the hurricane wasn't as bad as the worst-case projections. Either that or the hurricane would veer of course and hit somewhere else. Then one day IT WAS the worst-case scenario. Now some may say that because The media cried wolf with hurricanes of the past that they are to blame for those deaths. But then you realize What if they had chosen not to detail the worst-case scenario all those times? Then the public would have been outraged that the media failed to report all the dangers when the big one finally hit.
This is called darned if you do, darned if you don't. The media is one of those institutions that is susceptible to such things. If they fail to report the story they are called negligent or ill-informed or slow. If they do report it then they are misleading, fear-mongering, and sensationalistic.
Any ideas on how to solve such catch-22s, please feel free to share.
The real world- where people are not perfect and often the only two choices are both crappy. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that when 'Talk With The Foreign Beauties' or whatever it's called asks them about racism they've faced in Korea and zooms in on people crying and has the audience murmuring in disgust at some of the bad things that THAT IS questioning, non acceptance and indeed presenting a different view. |
You think that Korea provides a voice to minorities because a talk show featuring insipid sex objects willing to degrade themselves on national TV occasionally addresses the topic of racism? As much as the title 'Beauties' lends credibility to their opinions, I'm positive that even the most die-hard apologist would have a tough time with that one.
| Quote: |
| Are you telling me that if English Teachers en masse (say 5,000) stopped going to bars and instead did something like volunteer and pick up trash from 7-8PM on the streets of Seoul that that wouldn't get any attention and cause a change in the perception of us? And why not do it? It's a very simple idea that would be very effective. |
To tell you the truth, I don't think anyone would care. And besides, activities such as this is actually buying into the division and perpetuating the myth of racial identity-- I don't have to prove myself to anyone, let alone someone so ignorant as to judge me on the color of my skin-- however I could do without a media outlet justifying racism at every turn.
| Quote: |
Dude. Seriously? We would have Darfur here? Are you seriously comparing what we face here to Darfur? It does not come from the same lines of thinking.
We chose to be here. You chose to be here. This is not a centuries old issue that you were born into. |
Racism is racism, that's all. It comes in degrees. Darfur is a product of racism, and so is the Korea Times. Do you think that the Arabs in Darfur are telling themselves 'well, all men are equal, so we'd better make sure that we kill equal amounts of every race'? Obviously, the former is a lot more extreme than the latter, but they're two different degrees of the same mindset. And as I said, the fact that we 'chose to be here' is the main reason that the racism isn't more extreme than it is.
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| Again, I say it doesn't help that the major foreign district in Seoul is renowned for alcohol and prostitution. Maybe if it was arts, music, community service, in addition to cuisine, the perceptions might be different. |
KOREA is renowned for alcohol and prostitution... and yet somehow, the foreign community is expected to be an oasis of wholesome, constructive activities? I don't see many exposes on the 1000's of other red light districts scattered across various Korean cities of various sizes.
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| When you do so you realize that people here are not so different, that instead we are mostly the same. There are the same motivations and the same impulses. It takes on different forms, but in the end it is the same stuff. |
Nobody said that there weren't racist white people as well. There are also Koreans who aren't racist. Unfortunately, none of them seem to work at the Korea Times. |
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How on Earth did the U.S get pulled into this..... |
| benji wrote: |
| Korea is a world leader in child death caused by motor vehicles. Their unwillingness to enforce basic traffic laws demonstrates that nobody cares one iota about this. |
The guy tried to claim that people in Korea don't claim about child safety due to traffic enforcement. An argument as tasteless and baseless as that warrants at least a mention of a)gun crime and b)Health coverage. Every nation has a way in which it fails. This isn't a uniquely Korean phenomenon, but the poster was insinuating that it was.
| Quote: |
| When a Korean kid is run over by a Hyundai, there are no protests or outrage. But when the vehicle has a U.S license plate, there's massive protests and outrage. |
Ahhh but how many of those Korean kids run over by other Koreans were run over by a tank?
I think even you can tell there is something emotionally unsettling by getting run over by a tank, hence this-
| Quote: |
| when the vehicle has a U.S license plate |
Why not just say tank? It wasn't some kid getting run over by a G.I. in a Hyundai. It was a tank. People are going to be more loopy and emotional because we're talking about an Army tank. Now we all now that fundamentally it is the same, but when its someone you know and its someone else's army in your own country, people tend to get touchy about those sorts of things....
I'm sure if the exact same incident happened in Germany you might not see as irrational a reaction, but there would definitely be a section of
society that would make things a little uncomfortable for Americans there AND yes, I'm sure more than a few newspapers would report bad facts.
| Quote: |
| The Media was feeding Lies to the public. Is that what they're supposed to do? Print lies? |
No, but it IS what they DO. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying that's how it is. Why is it like this? Because there is freedom of the press. And when you have freedom of the press you have a press that is driven by the market. What is the market? Violence, Sex, and Scandal. Truth is only somewhat necessary. If you want a media that has more strictly enforced standards and doesn't sensationalize events or report only negative stories then you cannot have freedom of the press.
Are you seriously that naive to think that the media is some sort of benevolent truth-reporting organization? Look at the content- all negative and lurid.
What's a big story? Inside information of a scandalous nature. Is it always true? no.
One need only look at the history of reporting around the globe, and just in this decade mind you, to see countless examples of crappy journalism. Hence why public confidence in the news media is at an all time low.
And the reason the media sometimes prints sensationalist innuendos? Because that is what sells.
Also before you get all huffy over bad journalism- just remember it ain't the easiest job to get a story, and the last thing you want is for someone else to get t eh story first and beat you to it. Again this is a consequence of the media's free-market. This is why you get exaggerated and false stories. Our market for news makes speed more important than accuracy. If you don't like that stop using 'instant' media outlets. Support state review of all journalism and government editors.
| Quote: |
2 girls get run over. It was an accident. Apologies were made, money was distributed.
Due to influence from certain special interest groups, mainstream Korean media present information that was false.
This lead to rallies and outrage.
Violent incidents occur against members of the US army.
A Col. gets attacked by 3 guys and 3 GIs get mobbed in a subway. |
But the media didn't make the people DO THAT. Why?
1)Causation- If the Media DID cause that, then EVERYONE who was exposed to those stories would have committed acts of violence. Since everyone who was exposed to that story DID NOT commit an act of violence then the claim that the media causes violence is false.
2)Okay so maybe it didn't cause it, just that there is a correlation. During that time people who were exposed to the media reports had tens or hundreds of thousands of interactions with foreigners. Out of those thousands of interactions only a tiny number resulted in violence. Only 2 of which were 'significant'. This does not even reach the threshold of correlation.
3)What in the end we are talking about is personal responsibility. Does the media make you attack someone or is that your own choice? Do you make the decision to go and rob someone or is that 'society'? At what point are people individuals responsible for their own actions.
| Quote: |
Here's another example. The 6 o'clock news says that a hurricane is coming. The weather is bad, but there's actually no hurricane. The news runs the story anyways. You go out and buy supplies, build a shelter and
the next day, you find out there's no hurricane and you wasted your money. Who's to blame for the wasted money? |
Uhm, remember Katrina? Why did many people not evacuate or take it serioiusly? Because for many years you would get 'Hurricane Alerts' and people might evacuate, but usually the hurricane wasn't as bad as the worst-case projections. Either that or the hurricane would veer of course and hit somewhere else. Then one day IT WAS the worst-case scenario. Now some may say that because The media cried wolf with hurricanes of the past that they are to blame for those deaths. But then you realize What if they had chosen not to detail the worst-case scenario all those times? Then the public would have been outraged that the media failed to report all the dangers when the big one finally hit.
This is called darned if you do, darned if you don't. The media is one of those institutions that is susceptible to such things. If they fail to report the story they are called negligent or ill-informed or slow. If they do report it then they are misleading, fear-mongering, and sensationalistic.
Any ideas on how to solve such catch-22s, please feel free to share.
The real world- where people are not perfect and often the only two choices are both crappy. |
So my claims of a lack of child safety vis a vis autos in Korea is baseless and tasteless? Do you even live in Korea? Running red lights, driving on sidewalks, just insane driving; is normal driving behavior here. It's illegal but nobody cares. You do know that they tried to have a law on mandatory car seats for kids but mothers complained so much that they didnt want to use car seats so they scrappped the law. Again what does your comparison of guns in the US have to do with motor vehicles in Korea. Nothing. That analogy doesnt work so just give it up.
You mentioned Korea papers can print whatever they want because freedom of the press. Are you that daft? Freedom of the press has nothing to do with printing out and out lies. You really dont understand this? You really dont understand how media should be responsible if they repeatedly flat out lie about something and people react to it? |
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