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| Should we be allowed to sell our own organs? |
| yes |
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65% |
[ 13 ] |
| no |
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35% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
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For Sale- One Human Liver:
High Mileage but runs OK. Some rust. Very efficient- Gets 40 ozs./Buzz. Runs on Liquor, Beer, or Wine. Kidneys and Colon available in similar condition, ask for package deal. Contact Steelrails at 555-OUIL. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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1. What are you going to do? Wave a magic wand and give every body a paper pushing job for $12 an hour at the DMV? Economic development doesn'nt work that way. Societies have to start at a low level in order to get to a higher level. The same thing happened in Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc.
2. Don't get me wrong, I would hate to work in a sweat shop. But what can you do? It is the best course of action. Undoubtedly the kids of sweat shop workers will live better lives than their parents. That is how it has played out in the countries I mentioned, as well as our own countries.
3. I'm sure this happens but I will bet it is not as wide spread as you think.
4. You can't tell the rest of the world what to do. The legality of selling kidneys in the US doesn't automatically lead to what you posit. Legal kidneys will be cheaper, therefore less likely for unscrupulous actions in the third world. What you propose is actually MORE likely now than under a legal free market system.
5. I don't see kidney imports as a bad thing.
6. I know the answer to none of those questions. Do you?
7. How is that the fault of de-regulated markets? It would happen regardless.
8. I'm not convinced a legal market in kidneys would necessarily lead to a huge influx of black market kidneys. Besides, isn't there more incentive under the current system to harvest organs illegally.
You characterize all poor people as helpless chumps, who need to be protected by the benevolent western liberal progressive. Do you really think they would appreciate being infantilised in that way? I'm sure, though I would never presume to speak for them, that they would much rather use their own voice and determine their own path. |
1. But that's not the point. You're saying people in those conditions would "choose" to work in sweatshops and dangerous factories. I said they have no choice--they're doing it out of necessity.
2. It's not the best course of action. The best course of action would be to pay fair wages and for CEOs to accept that risk comes with the job. AND we need to acknowledge that not everyone started out on the same playing field. People are being born into these classes of workers and laborers with no help to get out, and all we can say is "That's the way it is?"
3. It's actually widespread.
4. No, it doesn't automatically lead to this, but historical evidence and current business practice does lend substantially to the idea that it will. Seriously, this new product will not exist in a vacuum.
5. And...what does that have to do with anything?
6. That's the point. I'm giving you things to think about.
7. Okay.
8. I don't understand why you keep saying "black market" kidneys. In this hypothetical situation, if selling organs was legal, it would be legal in other places around the world. If you could get cheaper kidneys outside of the United States, you would. We get other products the same way. This is not rocket science.
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You characterize all poor people as helpless chumps, who need to be protected by the benevolent western liberal progressive. Do you really think they would appreciate being infantilised in that way? I'm sure, though I would never presume to speak for them, that they would much rather use their own voice and determine their own path. |
I didn't characterize them as "helpless chumps". What are you even talking about? Is this the way you feel about them?
Half of my family is poor, and many are from places like China and poor places in Latin America. Given the choice between being poor in the United States, but having a good, safe job, and being poor in China but working in a sweatshop, do you really think they would choose to remain in China?
Please.
Your characterization of what a sweatshop is and how it impacts the local community is so beyond naive, I wonder if you even understand the meaning of the word.
Concerning sweatshops, there needs to be a complete overhaul of this system, starting with the removal the (not so) "free market" ideal that does not truly protect the working classes. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I would probably pawn off one of my *beep* if the price was right, but not both. Never...ever...both. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
1. But that's not the point. You're saying people in those conditions would "choose" to work in sweatshops and dangerous factories. I said they have no choice--they're doing it out of necessity. |
But what is the alternative? What would you propose to remedy the situation?
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2. It's not the best course of action. The best course of action would be to pay fair wages and for CEOs to accept that risk comes with the job. AND we need to acknowledge that not everyone started out on the same playing field. People are being born into these classes of workers and laborers with no help to get out, and all we can say is "That's the way it is?"
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OK. Let's create a hypothetical situation where we set up a body that mandates fair wages. How would that be determined? Who gets to decide? Do you know what the consequence of mandating wages is? It means fewer jobs. Have we made the workers better off? Or just a certain group of workers. You have to realize that just because we see benefits for a certain group, does not mean we have increased over all welfare.
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| 3. It's actually widespread. |
Prove it. The burden of proof in on you to prove your statements.
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4. No, it doesn't automatically lead to this, but historical evidence and current business practice does lend substantially to the idea that it will. Seriously, this new product will not exist in a vacuum. |
This point has got kind of muddied. I don't really know what we are debating here.
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5. And...what does that have to do with anything? |
You think kidney imports are a bad thing, I think trading kidneys could be mutually beneficial for both parties.
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| 6. That's the point. I'm giving you things to think about. |
Haha. Sorry. You don't get to do that. Once again the burden of proof is on you. I believe literally none of the things you said are a problem, either prove me wrong or stfu.
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| 8. I don't understand why you keep saying "black market" kidneys. In this hypothetical situation, if selling organs was legal, it would be legal in other places around the world. If you could get cheaper kidneys outside of the United States, you would. We get other products the same way. This is not rocket science. |
I've told you the answer to this problem a number of times. To sell kidneys, you would need a license. That would entail meeting certain criteria. For which harvesting organs under safe conditions, would be a likely example.
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You characterize all poor people as helpless chumps, who need to be protected by the benevolent western liberal progressive. Do you really think they would appreciate being infantilised in that way? I'm sure, though I would never presume to speak for them, that they would much rather use their own voice and determine their own path. |
I didn't characterize them as "helpless chumps". What are you even talking about? Is this the way you feel about them?
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This line of argument, from you, basically amounts to "I know you are, but what am I?" I believe you have good but ultimately naive intentions towards people in the developing world.
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Half of my family is poor, and many are from places like China and poor places in Latin America. Given the choice between being poor in the United States, but having a good, safe job, and being poor in China but working in a sweatshop, do you really think they would choose to remain in China?
Please. |
Nice guilt trip. But frankly I could care less. As for the choice between the states and China, when have I ever posited that as an issue. I've never said people shouldn't immigrate to better themselves if they can. If I had the choice between Podunk City South New Zealand and living in a pent house on Manhattan Island, what do you think my choice would be?
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Your characterization of what a sweatshop is and how it impacts the local community is so beyond naive, I wonder if you even understand the meaning of the word.
Concerning sweatshops, there needs to be a complete overhaul of this system, starting with the removal the (not so) "free market" ideal that does not truly protect the working classes. |
I have never characterized sweat shops as the land of milk and honey. They are dirty, difficult dangerous places to work. However, for now, they are the best option available to much of the developing world and have done much more good than bad. That's right, they are a GOOD thing. Unskilled workers need to start somewhere in order to gain skills. And many of those that started in sweat shops now work in machine shops and their kids will probably be engineers and scientists. It is a step on the road to economic development, it is not the end of the line. It was the same in the developed East Asian economies as well as our own.
You obviously have very good intentions when it comes to those less fortunate than ourselves and I respect that. However, what you propose ie. "overhauling the system", paying what you deem to be fair wages, would actually make the people you are trying to help worse off. When you mandate wages you destroy jobs. That is an immutable fact of economic life. You cannot get away from it. You will actually lower total welfare. Higher wages equal less jobs as well as likely reluctance for the factory to expand thus further destroying potential jobs.
Here are some links you might like to peruse.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Powellsweatshops.html#affiliation
http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1369
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VaHmgoB10E
http://jim.com/econ/
Last edited by Rusty Shackleford on Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| You're darned right I better be able to sell my organ you worthless, pinko, homos. I've got a beautiful Hammond thats gonna go on Ebay tomorrow and if any of you have anything to say about it I'l kick your asses! |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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http://reason.com/archives/2009/10/13/fresh-kidneys-for
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| Oxford University bioethicist Julian Savulescu rejects the notion that poverty is, in and of itself, a form of coercion. �People take risks for money,� observes Savulescu. Since this is case, he adds, �We need to ensure that the risk involved is reasonable compared with the benefits it will offer to the person undertaking the risk and society.� Interestingly, Caplan�s study notes that the mortality risk of donating a kidney is about 0.03 percent. Given that we already allow lots of people to take the risk of organ donation for no money now, it would be hard to argue that paying people for taking that risk is wrong. Savulescu further argues that prohibiting poor people from selling their organs as a way to alleviate their poverty is a �double injustice.� Why? Because such a ban, in effect, says �to a poor person: �You can�t have what most other people have and we are not going to let you do what you want to have those things.�� |
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| But the Caplan study cites estimates that �up to 5 to10 percent of kidney transplants performed annually around the world are the result of trafficking.� That translates into somewhere between 3,400 to 6,800 gray or black market kidney transplants per year. Until tissue engineering becomes a reality, enabling replacement organs to be grown in vats, the demand for �donated� organs will increasingly outstrip supply. |
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