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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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 Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Once again, all of this nonsense about not wanting to pay for someone else who didn't take care of themselves would be solved by "sin" taxes. Add another tax to cigarettes. Add tax to non diet soda, candy, chips(crisps), etc. Add tax to Fast food. Add tax to alcohol.
If this is done, people are either less inclined to buy unhealthy products or they suffer their consequences and pay for the likely health problems in advance.
Yes, this hits the poor more than it does the wealthy, but it's still cheaper to buy fish and vegetables from the grocery store than it is to buy a similar quantity of bigmacs and french fries from McDonalds. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
Yes, this hits the poor more than it does the wealthy |
They can learn to pay some share of the taxes.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm
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47% will pay no federal income tax
An increasing number of households end up owing nothing in major federal taxes, but the situation may not be sustainable over the long run. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: Re: health care |
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| mises wrote: |
| stolenchild00 wrote: |
| Um, anyone who thinks that if people get sick, it's their own fault, is an idiot. |
Smokers? Drunks? Fatasses? Junkies? I could go on. |
People who take care of themselves, don't smoke, drink moderatley, manage their weight, exercise, eat a reduced calorie diet when elderly, and don't take risks in choosing activities throughout their lifetime have a significantly reduced chance of cancer, heart disease, cardiovascular and lung diseases, diabetes, (the list is endless) and they have a much lower incidence of accidental injury. Their lifetime consumption of health care services is greatly reduced.
Why should people who take care of themselves be forced to pay for the losers who don't?
This is why "insurance" was invented.
Of course, the ignorant posters above still have not read or comprehended what insurance actually is.
So, really, try to read this, use your brain and understand that this is the definition of insurance:
Insurance:
Insurance is a pool made of individuals who share common characteristics and measurable risks that have a small chance of occurance and a predictable pattern of incidence, so as to allow the computation of actuarily determined future costs that allow the members of the pool the opportunity to "insure" against the major financial loss that may befall those who suffer the statistically unlikely misfortune of the actual occurance, by contributing small amounts to a pool by a large number of individuals that allows payment to those few who suffer a covered loss.
The likelyhood of the event must be small.
The members of the pool must be nearly the same.
The risk must be understood and predictable.
Events outside those covered, and individuals who are not homogeneous to the pool, must be excluded.
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Now the stupid young Turk wants to force insurance companies to cover those outside the homogeneous group. In other words, he wants to violate the principles of insurance.
This does not just increase the cost by the amount of the addtional teatment of one. It requires the true members of the group to subsidize those who don't belong. The result is the destruction of the pool. More and more individuals who should not be in the pool will join, the increase in costs due to such regulations cause the rates to skyrocket as the nightmare of cost management, increasing costs, unknown factors, recomputation, managing and analyzing claims is many times the addition treatment costs.
As the costs rise, rates rise, and those who were in the original group will leave the group. The group is no longer an insurance pool at all, but a socialistically generated political group without an actuarial basis for its existence. Rates rise, the socialists blame the insurance industry, and increase the regualtions which exacerbates the problem once again. The healthy flee and become the uninsured.
The answer to our insurance problems is to abolish socialism which has caused direct health care costs to double and insurance costs to increase ten fold.
No one can claim that the US payment system for insurance is not being destroyed by socialism. Over half of all payments are made by the government. These payments are completely unsupervised, drive up costs, encouraging and paying for unneeded health services, encouraging noncompetitive uncontrolled price increases, waste and massive fraud. Only a moron would not recognize that this is socialism.
Further, regulation of service providers - socialist regulations that actually harm care and require unneeded services have caused direct health care costs to double.
Without socialism in the provision, purchase and insurance of health care services, the costs of health care would be less than half of what they are today, the quality of services would be increased, and the cost of insurance, real insurance covering major medical, would be one tenth what it is today. There would be hundreds of competing insurance companies, cooperatives, mutual associations, worker and business associations. Health Insurance would be available on a "whole life" basis that would be transferable and noncancellable. Pools would reflect the homogeneous groupings the actually follow the principles of insurance that allow full, honest coverage and low rates.
(Portability also requires the repeal of the socialist income tax making all income tax free and repeal of state insurance laws that stop policy transfer across state borders.) |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Now, the other end of the fascist-socialist spectrum. If only the stupid Young Turk could read and think:
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Courts Charge Mother of 555-Pound Boy
A Mother Facing Felony Charges for Her Son's Obesity
By LAUREN COX
ABC News Medical Unit
June 29, 2009
The mother of a 555-pound, 14-year-old boy in South Carolina was charged with neglect last week for allegedly failing to control her son's weight.
Authorities are searching for his mother Jerri Gray who failed to make a scheduled court appearance on May 19, 2009. The judge has ordered the 555 pound teen be taken into protective custody because of medical neglect and Gray's failure to appear in court.
Before fleeing town with her son, Jerri Gray had been contacted by the local Department of Social Services previous times about her son's weight and was even issued a treatment plan to turn around Alexander Draper's morbid obesity, Gray's attorney Grant Varner told ABCnews.com.
But when Gray failed to bring Alexander in for some of his medical treatment appointments recommended by the department and he continued to gain weight, the state sent notice that Gray would lose custody of her only child. |
Now we see the outcome on the other side of the fascist-socialist system.
When a baby starts to get fat, much too fat, even at two months, it is the parents' fault. The parents are overfeeding the baby. This is possible even for breastfed babies.
So, as with all free societies, individuals must take personal responsibility for their actions. If you increase the risk that you will need health care for yourself, your children, or other dependents, then you should expect increased costs. Your health care costs will go up, so your insurance rates will go up.
In the case of the young baby, the parents have made the baby fat in only two months. We can see another obese child, teenager and adult in the making. It is a market signal to the parents that they are doing the wrong thing - if you get fat, smoke, don't exercise, take unnecessary risk in your choice of life activities in any area - your risk rises so your insurance costs rise.
The parents should have known this in advance, and they know it now. They could have kept the baby insured at a 40% increase - reasonable outcome for their stupidity. They can take action to see that the baby will be at a healthy weight a few months hence.
But, the socialists want to force others to pay for this. The insurance company of course - but it must be passed on to the pool - and this, in the aggregate of the socialist regulatory costs, drives up insurance costs ten fold.
Then, on the other end, when the boy has been encouraged to become the size of a prize hog, the mother will become a criminal in another fascist-socialist attack on liberty.
The fact is that people have the right to be fat, if that's what they want. They should just have to face all of the costs associated with being fat all along the way.
The free market should charge them more for insurance. They should have their rates raised or be placed in higher cost insurance pools for the obese. They will, of course, spend more on food and probably more for clothes of the same quality. They should pay more for airplane tickets - buying oversized seats or two or three seats in economy class. They should pay more for hospital stays since they require bigger reinforced beds. They should pay more for everything where their weight increases the cost of the service. Businesses should be able to refuse to serve them as well.
These things are good because they provide a market signal to the obese that they need to get thin. They should not be allowed to force themselves and their costs on others.
It's OK and legal to be fat, but you must pay your own way - or in this case - you must pay your own weigh.
But, at the end of the day, government itself should leave the obese alone. They should be forced to pay for the things they consume, but they should not be made criminals just because they have chosen to be fat. At 14 years of age, this boy is responsible for his own piggyness. Sure, he learned it from his mother, but the government itself has encouraged this outcome for generations.
Double failure for the socialists.
Socialism fails again.
Socialism always fails.
Socialism causes all of our social problems.
Socialism encourages obesity and unhealthy lifestyles.
Socialism kills. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Now we see the outcome on the other side of the fascist-socialist system. |
Which is it, Fascism or socialism? Fascism is on the right of the political spectrum, socialism is on the left.
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| When a baby starts to get fat, much too fat, even at two months, it is the parents' fault. The parents are overfeeding the baby. This is possible even for breastfed babies. |
It is the parents' fault for the child having gladular defects, yes? It is the parents' fault for the baby's metabolism to not function properly, yes?
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| But, the socialists want to force others to pay for this. |
Just like the capitalists want to force others to pay to educate their employees. Or protect their businesses. Or have healthy customers and workers.
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| Then, on the other end, when the boy has been encouraged to become the size of a prize hog, the mother will become a criminal in another fascist-socialist attack on liberty. |
You just said parents should be responsible for their actions but now you are complaining that she is being punished?
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| The fact is that people have the right to be fat, if that's what they want. They should just have to face all of the costs associated with being fat all along the way. |
The fact is that people have the right to be gay if that's what they want. They should just have to face all of the costs associated with being gay all along the way.
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| They should pay more for airplane tickets - buying oversized seats or two or three seats in economy class. They should pay more for hospital stays since they require bigger reinforced beds. They should pay more for everything where their weight increases the cost of the service. |
Rich people should pay more for policing costs, as they attract more criminal elements trying to rob them.
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| They should not be allowed to force themselves and their costs on others. |
Businesses should not be allowed to force the general public to pay for education, because it is that education that brings innovation and thus money to their company.
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| It's OK and legal to be fat, but you must pay your own way - or in this case - you must pay your own weigh. |
Capitalism fails again.
Capitalism always fails.
Capitalism causes all of our social problems.
Capitalism encourages murder, overeating, environmental damage, and poverty.
Capitalism kills.[/quote] |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Rich people should pay more for policing costs, as they attract more criminal elements trying to rob them. |
I was under the impression that it was the opposite, with the victims of such robberies more often in fact being poor people living in the same neighborhood as the robber. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Which is it, Fascism or socialism? Fascism is on the right of the political spectrum, socialism is on the left. |
You are so wrong and so out of touch with reality:
Fascism, like communism is just a form of socialism. It's a subset.
Check this political map. You see the bottom corner - that's the corner where the fascists, communists and other types of socialists reside. They are all essentially the same, although there are minor variations in theme.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/quiz.php |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
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The fact is that people have the right to be fat, if that's what they want. They should just have to face all of the costs associated with being fat all along the way. |
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| The fact is that people have the right to be gay if that's what they want. They should just have to face all of the costs associated with being gay all along the way. |
Very good. These are both correct. Maybe you will get it some day. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Businesses should not be allowed to force the general public to pay for education, because it is that education that brings innovation and thus money to their company. |
This is exactly correct. Neither business, which would have to use the government to accomplish this, nor government itself, should be able to force anyone to pay for other people's education or the education of other people's children. Everyone should pay their own way. Good. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Everything you wrote, great wall, proves my points. And your conclusion was stupid, illogical, and did not follow what you wrote which actually proves the opposite.
Good job.
The Great Wall has helped to prove that:
Socialism always fails.
Socialism causes all of our social problems.
Socialism encourages obesity and unhealthy lifestyles.
Socialism kills.
Thank you. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
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| Which is it, Fascism or socialism? Fascism is on the right of the political spectrum, socialism is on the left. |
You are so wrong and so out of touch with reality. |
I wasn't even going to waste my time disproving your ridiculous imagination but I can't let your uneducated drivel stand.
Facism is conservatism in the extreme. Wikipedia describes it as a "corporatism economic ideology" with a strong army and racist overtones.
They are against communists and liberal democracies.
Please do not insult the intelligence of the majority of the people here. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Rich people should pay more for policing costs, as they attract more criminal elements trying to rob them. |
I was under the impression that it was the opposite, with the victims of such robberies more often in fact being poor people living in the same neighborhood as the robber. |
Most serious (and expensive) police and detective work in the ghettos? Do I need to show stats? We could start with Clinton, OJ, and MJ and work our way down showing costs if you prefer. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| Do I need to show stats? |
Yes, you do. |
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