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UCLAgirl
Joined: 06 May 2009
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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: Random Q about Footprints |
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| I have a random question about Footprints recruiting (and yes, I've read through the searches on here, mine is a specific question!). I responded to one of their mass emails about positions they have available on their website, specifying 2 particular ones I was interested in. They responded back with an interview time. Now, I've heard people get rejected in their interviews all the time, which I guess I am ready for, but do you think they are actually considering me for the positions I specified and not just trying to throw me into some random one? I know it's kind of a specific question, but I'm just sick of recruiters who give you a bunch of cool positions and then proceed to tell you they are not available/could you interview with this other school and not the one you wanted. Thanks for any feedback. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| You are not being considered for the schools you requested at that point. You are being screened to see if you are worthy enough to be represented. Just tell them what they want to hear, dont get creative or point out the stupidity of their questions and then someday soon they send you offers that you didnt request.. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Random Q about Footprints |
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| UCLAgirl wrote: |
| I have a random question about Footprints recruiting (and yes, I've read through the searches on here, mine is a specific question!). I responded to one of their mass emails about positions they have available on their website, specifying 2 particular ones I was interested in. They responded back with an interview time. Now, I've heard people get rejected in their interviews all the time, which I guess I am ready for, but do you think they are actually considering me for the positions I specified and not just trying to throw me into some random one? I know it's kind of a specific question, but I'm just sick of recruiters who give you a bunch of cool positions and then proceed to tell you they are not available/could you interview with this other school and not the one you wanted. Thanks for any feedback. |
Hi UCLAgirl,
This is Will at Footprints. I sent out that email and set up your interview for you. I did note your preferences in your file and I believe your interview is scheduled with one of the Placement Coordinators who works with the Private Language Schools (unless I am mistaken - I'm not at work). That way the person you are interviewing with has direct knowledge about those positions and can answer any questions you have about the schools.
The interview is for Footprints Recruiting, and for our screening purposes. The questions we ask are about your experience with other cultures and in teaching roles, which we feel are important questions to ask. Once you have successfully completed the interview, we can assist you in applying to the schools you requested, and any other positions that may come up in the area you specified if you like.
So - in the end, while you are doing the same interview as our other applicants, and you are not interviewing *directly* with the school, you are interviewing with a staff member who knows the school and the position well, which I thought would be a good compromise.
-Will at Footprints |
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youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Footprints wants to make money from you, plain and simple. They make around $1000 for every teacher they find for a school. The school takes that from your salary. Wouldn't you rather have that $1000 in your pocket? So the incentive would be for them to sign up as many teachers as possible, rather than retention and carefully finding the right job for you. There aint no money in happiness.
Although I told them I specifically don't want Korea, they keep sending me emails if I am interested in Korean jobs.
It's funny how they keep mentioning the "economic crisis" in their ads.
Something like, "The world is going to helll in a handbasket, but we have jobs for you in Korea!" They use the economic crisis as an excuse to take any shitt job they have for you. Kind of deviant behavior if you ask me.
They claim to be international in nature, but, like Dave's, they basically represent the Korean job market.
Finding your own job will be much more rewarding and satisfying. Directly contact the companies you want to work with. Eliminate the middleman. A ton of "miscommunications" will be avoided.
PM me and I can give you other job search websites and good companies to work for. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Random Q about Footprints |
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| UCLAgirl wrote: |
| I'm just sick of recruiters who give you a bunch of cool positions and then proceed to tell you they are not available |
Footprints did pretty much this with me. PM me for more details. Like every other recruiting firm they're only interested in making money - youtuber mentioned finding your own job. Take their advice! I've found a job by taking the same advice and managed to find a job with better conditions than the crap that I kept getting offered by recruiters. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| youtuber wrote: |
Footprints wants to make money from you, plain and simple. They make around $1000 for every teacher they find for a school. The school takes that from your salary. Wouldn't you rather have that $1000 in your pocket? So the incentive would be for them to sign up as many teachers as possible, rather than retention and carefully finding the right job for you. There aint no money in happiness.
Although I told them I specifically don't want Korea, they keep sending me emails if I am interested in Korean jobs.
It's funny how they keep mentioning the "economic crisis" in their ads.
Something like, "The world is going to helll in a handbasket, but we have jobs for you in Korea!" They use the economic crisis as an excuse to take any shitt job they have for you. Kind of deviant behavior if you ask me.
They claim to be international in nature, but, like Dave's, they basically represent the Korean job market.
Finding your own job will be much more rewarding and satisfying. Directly contact the companies you want to work with. Eliminate the middleman. A ton of "miscommunications" will be avoided.
PM me and I can give you other job search websites and good companies to work for. |
Youtuber, I'm sorry but I disagree with what you wrote. Schools are businesses as well, and just because you save them money by applying directly to them doesn't mean they will hand that money over to you. We're talking about hagwons after all. By that logic, if a teacher is applying directly from within South Korea, the school should therefore give them the money saved from recruitment fees and airfare, which would be a nice 2000$ signing bonus. I can't say I've heard of that happening.
I also disagree with what you said about the economy. There is a recession and it has hit the ESL industry, end of story. Take a look at the job boards, or all the other recruiters out there. Nobody is swimming in jobs like they used to. That is a fact, though I don't recall writing "hell in a handbasket" in the email you are quoting from.
We have jobs right now and we have jobs in February. UCLAgirl can talk to us and hopefully we can land her a job in an area that she wants to teach in. If she finds a job on her own, that's cool too. She loses nothing by working with us and potentially gains a job. If she doesn't feel comfortable working with us, and prefers to go in another direction, we don't mind. We don't begrudge people happiness.
I do agree that there are some great websites and great organizations out there for job searches, and please do share them with UCLAgirl, or post them so that everyone can use them.
Lastly - if you don't want those emails, just tell us you aren't interested.
-Will |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| We have jobs right now |
Perhaps you do, but in the emails I've received from Footprints it certainly didn't seem that way to me (at least for jobs in Korea). |
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youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
Youtuber, I'm sorry but I disagree with what you wrote. Schools are businesses as well, and just because you save them money by applying directly to them doesn't mean they will hand that money over to you. We're talking about hagwons after all. By that logic, if a teacher is applying directly from within South Korea, the school should therefore give them the money saved from recruitment fees and airfare, which would be a nice 2000$ signing bonus. I can't say I've heard of that happening.
I also disagree with what you said about the economy. There is a recession and it has hit the ESL industry, end of story. Take a look at the job boards, or all the other recruiters out there. Nobody is swimming in jobs like they used to. That is a fact, though I don't recall writing "hell in a handbasket" in the email you are quoting from.
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By dissing hagwons aren't you biting the hand that feeds you? Careful. I have never heard of a signing bonus either, but I have heard of getting paid 2.2 million per month instead of getting paid 2.1 million per month by using a recruiter. Shame on you for trying to make a buck off of us (actually $1000) when we are being paid at the bottom of the barrel already ($14/hour).
I agree that the economy is not good now. However, Footprints continually brings up that fact in their emails and ads. We are not stupid. We know there is a recession. Be respectful of the intelligence of your demographic. Fear-mongering is bad policy. By using fear-mongering, Footprints gives the impression that one cannot find a suitable job without using their agency.
A person can find an equivalent or better job than Footprints can offer on their own. A recruiter breaks down the lines of communication between the teacher and school. It is far better to communicate directly with a school.
Recruiters like Footprints make tons of money off of our backs while contributing to the surplus number of teachers in Korea. They contribute to the lower and stagnant salaries that we receive. Why would you support that?
On more than one occasion, recruiters lied to me about salary and hours.
Contact schools directly and don't support the recruiting business. There are plenty of teachers on this board that are willing to help you out. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Youtuber,
Appreciate the post.
The market will determine what people get paid. When there are lots of teachers looking for work and fewer jobs, schools will get pickier and they will lower their salary offers if they think they can attract and maintain staff. When there are plenty of jobs and schools have to fight over good teachers, the salaries increase as a means of attracting and recruiting. That's basic stuff. For those of you who have been watching this industry for the last few years, I'm sure you've seen this.
As for making a buck, if we can offer a service that schools want, and that applicants want, at a fair price to the schools and for free to the applicants...I don't see the harm in that at all. The reality is that not every school wants to spend time screening the teachers and going through the visa process, booking the tickets, etc. Likewise, not every teacher is confident enough and knows enough about the industry to do it on their own. Like I've said many times - we don't force people to work with us. If they want to go it alone...they can. Hell - why not do both like you guys do? If you find something good through a recruiter, great...if you find something better on your own..fantastic. Where's the harm?
As for the recession, youtuber, I would agree with you, and morrisonhotel and all the other regulars here that you are not stupid, and you do understand the impact of the recession on the ESL industry.
However - there are many many many people who are considering ESL for the first time and have no idea how the industry works and what is out there for them. I talk to many first time teachers and I do have to explain things to them. A person straight out of Uni with no experience has to compete with you guys for a job right now. That person probably won't be that successful because you guys are qualified and experienced, so I am letting applicants know this and guiding them to where they would be successful - in the public schools.
You guys know what's going on and you're obviously seeing what's out there on your own, and obviously using Footprints otherwise you wouldn't have applied to us and you wouldn't be getting our emails.
I'm not sure why pointing out where people would be successful in a job search is a bad thing. I don't want them to get all of their documents and beat their heads against the wall week after week without finding work, only to miss the boat in applying for public schools. If they aren't successful now with the hagwons (and there are many people out there like this) they probably won't be successful in January with the hagwons - and by then the public schools will be full. I'm not sure why you're chalking this up to fear mongering.
It is a good thing to speak directly to schools, but sometimes the language barrier prevents that. Quite often our teachers end up doing another interview with the director of the school anyway...so they do end up speaking directly to the school and to the management there.
I'm sorry you were lied to by a recruiter and it has soured you on the entire thing, but I wouldn't spend my Saturday and Sunday at work and working indirectly via Dave's if I didn't honestly think I (and Footprints) have something to offer to the would be teachers out there. I'm not sure why I deserve to be "shamed" for this.
Lastly - bottom of the barrel? What other job pays for airfare and housing, taxes you very little and then gives you 14$ an hour or more? What other job provides you with this and requires you to have little more than a Bach. degree in anything and speak English? I'm not saying ESL teaching is the greatest gig ever, but there are a lot of people who are out of work these days - for months, and there are a lot of communities suffering...14$ an hour with your rent paid isn't bottom of the barrel my friend.
-Will |
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nomad-ish
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Location: On the bottom of the food chain
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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i was definitely not impressed with footprints either. they were very interested in placing me until they found out that i had left one previous contract early (with a good reference from the school). after that, i couldn't get an answer from them.  |
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youtuber
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Will,
If a school can't communicate with a teacher well enough to conduct an interview, why would a new teacher want to work there? How will they communicate during the year?
If a school can't be bothered to do the basic administrative tasks of arranging flights, visas, ect., then what happens if there is an administrative problem during the year? Is the teacher supposed to contact Footprints to solve their problems instead of expecting the school to handle the problem? Again, why would a teacher want to work at such a place?
How can Footprints, which is located in Vancouver, be of any help to someone thousands of miles away in Korea? Do you even know who you are representing? Do you fly over to meet every new client? I have a hard time seeing what value Footprints has over just finding a job on the internet.
Direct communication from the beginning prevents numerous headaches later on. Recruiters inhibit direct communication.
Nothing personal against you Will, I just despise the recruiting industry.
It's interesting that Japan doesn't really have a recruiting industry. And guess where people are happier working? Hint: it's not Korea. |
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Darkray16
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| You are not being considered for the schools you requested at that point. You are being screened to see if you are worthy enough to be represented. Just tell them what they want to hear, dont get creative or point out the stupidity of their questions and then someday soon they send you offers that you didnt request.. |
This.
That's been my experience for the last three months with almost all recruiters. Though so were much more honest about the situation. When an employee of the school itself then you are being considered for the position, though some schools skip this step and just offer the contract if your application looks good and you've passed the recruiters general interview. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| Hell - why not do both like you guys do? If you find something good through a recruiter, great...if you find something better on your own..fantastic. Where's the harm? Will |
I've got to agree with this. I have been in contact with many recruiters (FP included) in job searches in the past.
I started at a hakwon about 5 years ago (3 years there) and am finishing up a second year at a ps in Seoul.
I didn't end up using a recruiter for either of these jobs, but they do serve a purpose for some. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Random Q about Footprints |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
. . . you are interviewing with a staff member who knows the school and the position well, which I thought would be a good compromise.
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He's joking, right? |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| youtuber wrote: |
Will,
If a school can't communicate with a teacher well enough to conduct an interview, why would a new teacher want to work there? How will they communicate during the year?
If a school can't be bothered to do the basic administrative tasks of arranging flights, visas, ect., then what happens if there is an administrative problem during the year? Is the teacher supposed to contact Footprints to solve their problems instead of expecting the school to handle the problem? Again, why would a teacher want to work at such a place?
How can Footprints, which is located in Vancouver, be of any help to someone thousands of miles away in Korea? Do you even know who you are representing? Do you fly over to meet every new client? I have a hard time seeing what value Footprints has over just finding a job on the internet.
Direct communication from the beginning prevents numerous headaches later on. Recruiters inhibit direct communication.
Nothing personal against you Will, I just despise the recruiting industry.
It's interesting that Japan doesn't really have a recruiting industry. And guess where people are happier working? Hint: it's not Korea. |
Hey -
The language barrier and communication issues aren�t the only reason schools work with us. I worked at a school where the director spoke no English (my manager did) and I had a great time. There are great schools out there with Directors who speak no English. There are awful schools out there with Directors who are fluent in English. So you can't necessarily equate English ability with a good school.
As for the Administrative task � I think that maybe you�ve forgotten how overwhelming the visa process is because you are experienced. Have you ever had to explain the difference between a credit card and a visa? Have you ever explained the entire visa process to a teacher, only to have them FedEx their passport and driver�s license to your office for no reason, despite the fact that under no circumstance was that part of the instructions (has happened several times)? Have you had to stay on top of visa policies so that when Korean immigration changes their mind (which we all know happens often) from local checks to state checks, or changed from requiring a vulnerable sector check to not? We make it our business to know this stuff while a Director of a school has other stuff to worry about.
But the visa process isn�t the only reason schools work with us. We have a high completion rate for our teachers. The schools like the teachers we send them. We�ve been able to reduce the instances of �False Positives� � which are people who, according to their resume, etc. indicated they would be great teachers but didn�t work out.
We don't force schools to work with us. We don't force teachers to work with us. Yet schools still do, and teachers still do. The reason is we are offering a service they find worthwhile. We placed more teachers with EPIK and the SMOE than any other recruiter, if I am not mistaken. We're doing something right, obviously.
This is not to say we are perfect. We�ve made mistakes, and some people have had bad experiences with us, and that is regrettable. But any recruiter, school, ministry whoever who says they have never made a mistake at any point is lying to you.
We are in Vancouver, but Dave and Ben do fly over to meet with schools. Sometimes they fly over to meet with us. We have an office in South Korea (soon to be in Seoul!) and Scott Kim meets with the schools as well. Sometimes it is directly with the school, sometimes with the MOE representatives (can't visit every public school obviously) and sometimes it is with a head office or the HR Department for a larger chain. We are in contact with the schools regularly, so no, I am not joking when I say we know them pretty well. We do have an office in South Korea for any situation that requires our presence and we do meet with schools we work with.
I know I shouldn't take it personal, but I do. We work pretty damn hard around here.
Also - from what I understand the visa process in Japan is different in that your visa doesn't tie you down to a school like the E-2 Visa does for South Korea. As the visa in Japan allows you to work at a different school than the one who brought you over, a school in Japan is less likely to offer airfare and housing and less likely to use a recruiter because there is no guarantee that the teacher will stay. This is also why most "recruiters" in Japan are in-house and the recruitment arm of the school or organization. Not to mention that finding a job in Japan isn't easy because when people think ESL they think Japan and it is over saturated with teachers.
So to sum up - we're doing pretty well placing teachers and have been for years. We're placing more teachers than most recruiters out there. We don't force schools or teachers to work with us and yet even from Vancouver we seem to be offering a service that people are willing to use and schools are willing to pay for. We�re not perfect, but we�re good and we've found work for a lot of people. I know you're not a fan of recruiters but you did apply to us as well no?
-Will |
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