Korean Job Discussion Forums

[withnail]

One of my favorite Dave's members (Bassexpander) questions the legitimacy of an MA without a thesis/project.

I'm interested in his addition of the word "project". Is this an alternative badge of academic rigor? Aren't "No thesis" MAs a relatively recent phenomenon?

To many in Britain and the US, it seems like no thesis equals no respect. Happily, it's becoming less of a question of whether the MA was done online or on site.

In my view, projects seem easier in comparison. I'm not saying they are not hard work too but the word is people don't often fail them.

A thesis, usually of 20,000 words and involving months of proper research, whilst constantly safeguarding the work against threats to validity and reliability is what makes the Masters Degree special and worth having. Drawing up valid and reliable data collection instruments and subjecting the results to analysis seems far more difficult. Multiply this x10 for a Ph.D thesis.

Are projects subject to the same scrutiny and rigorous standards? They seem like meat and drink to any graduate with a decent work ethic.

Theses are at constant risk of failure and many students do fail them. There are so many pitfalls along the way, that to complete one is an achievement indeed. Multiply that x10 for Ph.D thesis.

Was the moment unis stopped demanding the submission of a thesis, the moment that the perceived value of the MA degree took a nosedive?

From there, it seems to have been a short step to MAs which could be done in a matter of months.

It used to be that doing an MA proved you had the ability to do proper research and were qualified to write properly for peer-reviewed journals. You were then also equipped to publish your own research. The fact that you would want to do this was taken for granted. It was assumed you'd want to participate in the development of your chosen field.

It seems that only later, when it was recognised that there were some in the community whose MA was for them a means to a particular end (like a pay rise or entry to uni jobs like those in Korea) that things began to change. Did dumbing down begin right there?

Is the following an unfair comparison concerning issues of credibility?

Online MAs finishing with a capstone project = your 100 hour online intro TESOL cert

MA with proper academic thesis = CELTA

PHd = DELTA/Trinity Dip.

Any takers? This may be completely stupid because it's comparing apples and oranges - graduate qualifications are of course on another level, but in terms of relative difficulty and chance of failure, does it stand up?

I ask this not to attack those who did/are doing a modular MA with no thesis but rather just to have a bit of a debate and learn something. I'm interested to hear the arguments.

Proper reasoned arguments welcome!

[FistFace]

Don't know if this helps you, nail. Google is a friend,


http://www.law.duke.edu/curriculum/capstone/procedure

[withnail]

Interesting references...although I'm not sure how "the sell" relates to the reality. These citations are also from top notch establishments.

Thank you though. I am ready to revise my prejudices ...

On the CELTA comparison though, with its requirement for observed teaching practice as opposed to none at all (online certs), I'd defend that analogy. Also, although the CELTA is as you rightly say not regarded significantly in Korea or the US for that matter, I can assure you that it does mean something in the rest of the world, something far superior to an online certification.

Perhaps the Bass man is right to imply that theses and projects are equally rigorous...good to know!

[hobakmorinam]

My M.ed has a four month student teaching practicum instead of thesis.

You'll find practicums in degrees that are more applied as opposed to academic. (IE a degree that gets you a teaching license vs one that gets you nothing)

As far as projects, no idea. Suppose it depends what the project is.

[NYCESOL11211]

I'm about to graduate with an M.A. in a TESOL-related field. No thesis is required in my program, which is at a traditional brick-and-mortar school.

I've already presented research at a national conference, and I'll most likely have an article (based on grad school work) published in a scholarly journal soon after I graduate. I plan to keep writing articles and presenting at major conferences.

I don't feel like I'll be any less marketable for not having completed an M.A. thesis.

[Moldy Rutabaga]

It was probably unlikely that a Masters with no thesis would have been acceptable for entrance into a PhD program years ago, but that is changing now. Still, I think for entrance into a prestigious or competitive program, the MA who has written a thesis will be accepted first. But that's all things being equal. Someone who publishes and is active has a definite advantage. And of course there are applied disciplines that are exceptions.

I'm sure people have had different experiences, but in my program I had the choice of a thesis or considerably more coursework and exams. There was no free pass for those who didn't want to do the thesis. But I wrote mine because I was interested in the subject and thought it was a more respectable academic activity. I still do.

As to whether the reputation of MAs has declined because of watering down of requirements, though, I'm not sure that's true. I think that if MAs are less valued nowadays it is largely because there are so many of them, just like BAs are unfortunately a dime a dozen in many fields. It's not necessarily because they are easier to get.

[dunc180]

For those doing MAs online or through distance ed. in Korea, how does one carry out research and gather resources? I know there are lots of online journals and resources. But is that sufficient? Is it hard to undertake research without access to your university library? Can you get anything from Korean universities?

[PRagic]

"It used to be that doing an MA proved you had the ability to do proper research and were qualified to write properly for peer-reviewed journals. You were then also equipped to publish your own research. The fact that you would want to do this was taken for granted. It was assumed you'd want to participate in the development of your chosen field."

Maybe it's different across diciplines, but this seems to be a highly antiquated way of looking at what the MA prepares one to do.

Very, very (ok...VERY) few people whom I have taught at the MA level are prepared to do research on the level required by decent international peer reviewed journals. If I work together with an MA student, and if they put in the requisite time doing a proper lit review, building their hypotheses, and collecting data, than maybe some could pull it off. In general, however, a project of this scope is beyond what most people are prepared to do, both in terms of cost and time investment, when they're in grad school.

Most do not have the background in stats and modeling to put the concept together from the get-go and follow it through to the end, though. As my Ph.D. dissertation chair inclined, MA students are the most difficult because they've read enough to know something, but not enough to know that their 'great idea' has already been researched and things have moved on. In short, if you think you have a great idea, odds are someone has already thunk it.

Looking back, there is no way that I or anyone I did my Master's with could have published in a credible journal on our own as our work stood. My Master's thesis was quoted in a textbook by a major scholar, and just THAT was considered to be a big deal!

When it boils right down to it, most MA theses are glorified lit reviews with a dash of synthesis and a dabble of (statistical) analysis; these efforts may or may not consitute a new contribution to the field. For most in education, the MA/MEd is a degree for practitioners in the field - teachers in the trenches, if you will. The value of the degree lies in the introduction of theory and research results that can be (or sometimes can't be) put to work in the classroom. If you want to take it to the next level, that's when you get into a doctoral program.

Like I said, things may vary across diciplines. Just my 2 cents.

[Moldy Rutabaga]

[Mr. Pink]

PR: good analysis. I agree wholeheartedly.

As a teacher I would have liked to have done an MA in my teaching area, but I realize an M.Ed would be more practical as it examines areas related to the whole teaching experience and not just a specific content area.

M.Eds tend to be twice as long as MA degrees as well.

[cubanlord]

[Mr. Pink]

[withnail]

PRagic wrote

[Moldy Rutabaga]

There are very likely different standards and requirements for MAs in western universities. I can only speak for my own program in Newfoundland, which required honors BAs, was two years, and was certainly not accepting of sloppy work. There was no streaming. I can't speak about M.Ed. degrees in Canada, but I do know that they usually require B.Eds with teaching experience and are competitive.

[hobakmorinam]

What PR said.

You're fooling yourself if you think a thesis somehow sets you apart. Good for you if you did it, but most likely it was "a glorified lit review with a dash of statistical analysis", to borrow a phrase. Nobody is doing groundbreaking work at the MA level. First off, most fields are so far developed that a MA is still getting you caught up to the state of the art theories. Second, as PR said, if your thought of it, someone else has already done it at that level.

Anyway, cool if you did a thesis, I don't mean to knock it. However, looking down at someone who didn't do it is bs.