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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| It is not racism, but nationalism. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Is it... |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/11/the_swiss_ban_minarets.asp
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| Is it simple racism for, say, the Dutch to want their nation to stay Dutch -- not just in terms of geography -- in terms of language, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture? |
Is it? |
No, it's not racism to want that. I would personally not want Canada, in a matter of years, to be over-run by arab Muslims, Korean Confucians, or schismatic Mormons with twenty wives each from rural Utah. And that's why I am not an advocate of open-border immigration, and believe that a country's influx should come from a variety of sources.
But, once the immigrants are living in the country, and if that country is claiming to be a democracy, I don't think you can just start cooking up arbitrary restrictions on what those immigrants can do. I honestly don't see how outlawing a particular form of religious architecture is any less a form of censorship than would be outlawing certain religious pamphlets or music. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Is it simple racism for, say, the Dutch to want their nation to stay Dutch -- not just in terms of geography -- in terms of language, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture?
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I'd say it's pretty short-sighted.
If those are the goals you want to achieve then you have to adopt policies that lead to that end. One of those is to institute an isolationist policy--and drop out of the EU, for one. For another, when times are good don't build industries that require more workers than your country can provide.
Then there's the thing about 'the dead hand of the past' controlling the future. While I loved my grandparents while they were alive, I don't feel any obligation to them--and even less to my great-grandparents--to do what suited them. I think the choices about 'languages, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture' are mine to make, not theirs.
I've been living in S. Korea for about 14 years and have seen huge changes but I still see Korea as Korea. My take on it is: If people are self-confident, they can change and still remain who they are. It's the people who lack confidence who worry about their identity when changes occur around them. I suspect back in the 17th Century there were Dutch guys sitting in their little fishing boats watching the big merchant ships sail out of Amsterdam who said, "Ain't nothing good going to come of this development." |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Location: Prague
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-ta's boys arguments about industry's need are not fact based. Based on the post about Americans throwing away 40% of their food plus the fact that Americans over eat by 30% and that added to he earlier statitsic means that the USA does not need 70% of the foodstuffs we have, yet industry insists they still need labor.
The term "Industry" is an intentionally foggy, nay dishonest term. Industry means individual employers. When the concept is fogged in this way, its difficult to investigate the matter.
Ya-ta boy has his opinions on what heritage means. The Dutch, along with the rest of the Westerners are very uneasy about the slow burn extermination they are being subjected to. They are being replaced by people that want more money although the new ones mouth the word tolerance often.
The people in change of the shifting become the new leaders entitled to the wealth and power that comes along with it although they insist too that tolerance matters. See Gordon Brown's statement about why Labour really likes immigration. Immigration means votes.
Yes, by all means lets have more extorsion based democracy. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I'd say it's pretty short-sighted.
If those are the goals you want to achieve then you have to adopt policies that lead to that end. One of those is to institute an isolationist policy--and drop out of the EU, for one. For another, when times are good don't build industries that require more workers than your country can provide.
Then there's the thing about 'the dead hand of the past' controlling the future. While I loved my grandparents while they were alive, I don't feel any obligation to them--and even less to my great-grandparents--to do what suited them. I think the choices about 'languages, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture' are mine to make, not theirs.
I've been living in S. Korea for about 14 years and have seen huge changes but I still see Korea as Korea. My take on it is: If people are self-confident, they can change and still remain who they are. It's the people who lack confidence who worry about their identity when changes occur around them. I suspect back in the 17th Century there were Dutch guys sitting in their little fishing boats watching the big merchant ships sail out of Amsterdam who said, "Ain't nothing good going to come of this development." |
I agree. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dutch, along with the rest of the Westerners are very uneasy about the slow burn extermination they are being subjected to. |
Aren't you radically overgeneralizing here? Isn't 'extermination' a highly inflammatory word choice (not to mention 'subjected to')?
While I don't often agree with bacaspar, I think he's onto something when he says this issue is about nationalism, at least in part.
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| They are being replaced by people that want more money |
This also caught my eye. Typically, foreign labor is paid less than native labor, at least in the US. Maybe that doesn't happen in Europe, but I doubt it. A large part of the problem goes back to business leaders (since r_s dislikes the use of 'industry') demanding more labor than the country can supply. A more money-hungry bunch of people are hard to find, in my opinion. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| It is not racism, but nationalism. |
If only issues were so simple, they could be defined by a single word. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| It is not racism, but nationalism. |
Or perhaps culture-ism? Or civilizational-ism? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Is it... |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/11/the_swiss_ban_minarets.asp
| Quote: |
| Is it simple racism for, say, the Dutch to want their nation to stay Dutch -- not just in terms of geography -- in terms of language, food, religion, government, architecture and all the things that make up a culture? |
Is it? |
It's not racist, and it's totally acceptable. Such a decision comes with | | |
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