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yingwenlaoshi
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: ... location, location!
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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| No beer left = cry |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Oh, come on .38. You know me better than that. My point, wrapped in a bit of smart-assedness, was that the guys who are carrying on about how inappropriate it is for a real man to cry are being a bit ridiculous. Crying, although based in emotions, is a physical function of the body. Like laughing. It's extremely hard to control. And it's unreasonable to expect yourself to be able to.
Much like all women could be a size 2 if they all stopped eating, even when they're hungry, I suppose all men could stop crying. But in the end, what makes you weaker: occasionally having a good sob-fest or giving in to imbalanced, pre-constructed notions about your gender and allowing them to dictate your life and your perception of your own manhood?
I don't really try to make men cry. That often.  |
I think the point isn't whether men ought to cry, or what circumstances are actually appropriate for crying, but instead that there is an enormous, deeply ingrained stigma against men crying publicly and the effects upon the men themselves can be quite, well, awful.
What bothers me isn't that men aren't supposed to cry. It does irk me, a little, that women should have any kind of opinion on the matter at all concerning whether it is appropriate for men to cry. Not that women can't have their own opinions. But for them to attempt to dictate, whether through some half-baked philosophy or cooky abstraction of reality, the emotional capacities of men is absurd. It really is a man thing. It isn't voluntary, it isn't a result of internalizing a concept of gender and choosing to dictate one's life by it.
To use your own analogy: It is not that women should or even could be a size two, but that there is an intense social pressure to cause women to desire to be a size two and to have an emotional, psychological reaction to failing to be a size two. Like women on men crying, I find it to be a little sad that a woman should be so concerned about a stupid number. Sad not because they are in anyway pathetic, but sad because it is unfair and bizarrely cruel that such a pressure to conform to a sometimes impossible end should be placed upon them at all.
And like a woman being pressured to be a smaller size, even against her natural and beautiful physiology, the stigma against men is also irrational, emotionally damaging, but nevertheless culturally dictated and internalized by a very young age. It need not be reasonable to be sewn into the very fabric of consciousness for many, many millions of men. |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Harpeau wrote: |
| I'm a guy. I feel what I feel. If I feel like crying, I will and nothing's gonna stop me. If some guy wants to cry in front of me, then that's also fine by me. Tears are a sign of strength. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. |
You got f'in' balls. |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| yingwenlaoshi wrote: |
| No beer left = cry |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Oh, come on .38. You know me better than that. My point, wrapped in a bit of smart-assedness, was that the guys who are carrying on about how inappropriate it is for a real man to cry are being a bit ridiculous. Crying, although based in emotions, is a physical function of the body. Like laughing. It's extremely hard to control. And it's unreasonable to expect yourself to be able to.
Much like all women could be a size 2 if they all stopped eating, even when they're hungry, I suppose all men could stop crying. But in the end, what makes you weaker: occasionally having a good sob-fest or giving in to imbalanced, pre-constructed notions about your gender and allowing them to dictate your life and your perception of your own manhood?
I don't really try to make men cry. That often. |
I think the point isn't whether men ought to cry, or what circumstances are actually appropriate for crying, but instead that there is an enormous, deeply ingrained stigma against men crying publicly and the effects upon the men themselves can be quite, well, awful.
What bothers me isn't that men aren't supposed to cry. It does irk me, a little, that women should have any kind of opinion on the matter at all concerning whether it is appropriate for men to cry. Not that women can't have their own opinions. But for them to attempt to dictate, whether through some half-baked philosophy or cooky abstraction of reality, the emotional capacities of men is absurd. It really is a man thing. It isn't voluntary, it isn't a result of internalizing a concept of gender and choosing to dictate one's life by it.
To use your own analogy: It is not that women should or even could be a size two, but that there is an intense social pressure to cause women to desire to be a size two and to have an emotional, psychological reaction to failing to be a size two. Like women on men crying, I find it to be a little sad that a woman should be so concerned about a stupid number. Sad not because they are in anyway pathetic, but sad because it is unfair and bizarrely cruel that such a pressure to conform to a sometimes impossible end should be placed upon them at all.
And like a woman being pressured to be a smaller size, even against her natural and beautiful physiology, the stigma against men is also irrational, emotionally damaging, but nevertheless culturally dictated and internalized by a very young age. It need not be reasonable to be sewn into the very fabric of consciousness for many, many millions of men. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: Re: women and how they feel about men crying |
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| Fox wrote: |
I wonder if these women realize that they're essentially partaking in male oppression here (at least in the way the word oppression tends to be used by feminists).
Not that I care, I'll cry if and when I like. |
Actually, and here's the neat part, they're taking part in female oppression. Whaa? How can that be? Women aren't harmed by enforcing the cultural norm of male stoicism! All the negative fallout for this is felt by men! And, you are right. Individual men feel the immediate harm of this cultural norm. However, the replication of gender roles ultimately serves to keep men in power and women subservient. When you are talking about a system of oppression, you have to remember not all of the pieces of that system see a direct benefit.
Also, a la marxist feminism, gender is just one of the false (there is a word for this but I don't know what it is so I'll just say) ideologies that keep apparently disparate groups in lower classes from recognizing their common interest. While we are snipping at each other about how one sub-group is better off than another subgroup, we fail to right the inequalities in the overall social order.
Check out ‘the glass escalator’ if you want to see how individual men in a system of female oppression can be harmed by trying to step outside the confines of their gender roles. See, patriarchy hurts men too!
| .38 Special wrote: |
....It really is not that simple. It is not about being a "real man" or a "pansy" or a "queer," but about a narrowly defined role of society that develops the consciousness of men.
Before any woman can understand chauvinist, patriarchal sexism, from a perspective other than "victim," she must first understand the circumstances of culture and socialization that dictate behavior and attitudes.
Laugh about it if you like. But for as long as you laugh, for as long as you "really try" to make men cry, you will not understand men.
Similar is the desire to be free of weakness is the desire to destroy one's life for the perpetuity of others.... |
Yes and thank you for the insight. This is where real masculinism and real feminism find a common ground. .38, you are special!
Last edited by aboxofchocolates on Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| soakitincider wrote: |
Real men express their emotions. It's quite healthy, actually.
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If you don't believe him, you should know that's not an emotocon but an actual picture of soakitincider- just look how happy he is! |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
| UknowsI wrote: |
I found this whole thread a bit weird... as in I wonder if it's all a joke or not.
I have found sadness to be very strongly connected with love. If I don't feel love there is no way I'll cry (I guess there can be some extreme situations, but I haven't been in those yet). The more I love someone the easier that person can make me cry, and this is not something I'm ashamed of. If a girl I love betrays me do you guys suggest I should rather beat her up instead of crying? I know some guys would do that, but not really my style. |
I agree with a previous poster; how hypocritical of those women that I overheard gender stereotyping men like this, when they in fact preach that men should not gender stereotype women!
These women, might I add, are very outspoken about women's rights and are staunch feminists. As I said, I go to this coffee shop a lot to do work and have become friendly with the staff. They are all college kids at the local university. |
 Those women FAIL at feminism!! What the fiddlesticks?! Is their text 'ladies home journal'?! |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a woman, but a no-fail-every-time-cry-fest always follows when Manny Pacquaio puts his hands up and cries in the corner after he wins a fight. Gets me every time!!! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dirving wrote: |
| yingwenlaoshi wrote: |
| No beer left = cry |
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lol |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Oh, come on .38. You know me better than that. My point, wrapped in a bit of smart-assedness, was that the guys who are carrying on about how inappropriate it is for a real man to cry are being a bit ridiculous. Crying, although based in emotions, is a physical function of the body. Like laughing. It's extremely hard to control. And it's unreasonable to expect yourself to be able to.
Much like all women could be a size 2 if they all stopped eating, even when they're hungry, I suppose all men could stop crying. But in the end, what makes you weaker: occasionally having a good sob-fest or giving in to imbalanced, pre-constructed notions about your gender and allowing them to dictate your life and your perception of your own manhood?
I don't really try to make men cry. That often. |
I think the point isn't whether men ought to cry, or what circumstances are actually appropriate for crying, but instead that there is an enormous, deeply ingrained stigma against men crying publicly and the effects upon the men themselves can be quite, well, awful.
What bothers me isn't that men aren't supposed to cry. It does irk me, a little, that women should have any kind of opinion on the matter at all concerning whether it is appropriate for men to cry. Not that women can't have their own opinions. But for them to attempt to dictate, whether through some half-baked philosophy or cooky abstraction of reality, the emotional capacities of men is absurd. It really is a man thing. It isn't voluntary, it isn't a result of internalizing a concept of gender and choosing to dictate one's life by it.
To use your own analogy: It is not that women should or even could be a size two, but that there is an intense social pressure to cause women to desire to be a size two and to have an emotional, psychological reaction to failing to be a size two. Like women on men crying, I find it to be a little sad that a woman should be so concerned about a stupid number. Sad not because they are in anyway pathetic, but sad because it is unfair and bizarrely cruel that such a pressure to conform to a sometimes impossible end should be placed upon them at all.
And like a woman being pressured to be a smaller size, even against her natural and beautiful physiology, the stigma against men is also irrational, emotionally damaging, but nevertheless culturally dictated and internalized by a very young age. It need not be reasonable to be sewn into the very fabric of consciousness for many, many millions of men. |
All of this is right on, and I understand it well.
However, I'd tear into women who filled a thread with rants about how women have a responsibility to keep themselves thin and svelte, even to the detriment of their health, with the same tenacity. Because the world exists outside of us before we enter it, but then we become a part of it, and ultimately are responsible for the changes that are going to be made to these kinds of systems of oppression. The systems certainly are not going to alter themselves.
Aboxofchocolates is also right on, of course. The women who support these ridiculous concepts of masculinity aren't looking very far in front of their noses. It just serves to reinforce the role of men as strong, and, therefore, of women as weak in comparison. Moronic.
I have a father who has very structured ideas about gender roles, and, as a result of this (mostly), we don't have a relationship. At all. Still, when I think back over the years, the one time I ever saw my father cry is the one moment that can make my heart soften toward him even a little bit. Crying is human and sincere.
Now. Do I want to date a guy who bursts into tears every time he sees a limping puppy or an old woman struggling to cross the street? Hell no. I don't want to hang out with a girl who would do that either. But anyone who wants to classify and categorize the act is being absurd and missing the point entirely. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'm male and Canadian.
By default this means we only cry when we see the snowplough heading for the driveway we just spent the last hour digging out. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I understand where everyone is coming from, but I don't feel comfortable when anyone cries in public, regardless of gender; it is awkward and I am only talking about my opinion, but I find it slightly revolting/weak. However, I have had many family members who have ruined their lives by not being able to keep their emotions in check, so my environment has most likely influenced me to be the stalwart individual. Regardless, I see no benefit to crying in public, while there are a multitude of negatives. I stick by my belief that one should keep their tears to themselves; do it in your officetel. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Triban wrote: |
| I understand where everyone is coming from, but I don't feel comfortable when anyone cries in public, regardless of gender; it is awkward and I am only talking about my opinion, but I find it slightly revolting/weak. However, I have had many family members who have ruined their lives by not being able to keep their emotions in check, so my environment has most likely influenced me to be the stalwart individual. Regardless, I see no benefit to crying in public, while there are a multitude of negatives. I stick by my belief that one should keep their tears to themselves; do it in your officetel. |
You can't tolerate people crying in public? Who's the weak one, again? |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Triban wrote: |
| I understand where everyone is coming from, but I don't feel comfortable when anyone cries in public, regardless of gender; it is awkward and I am only talking about my opinion, but I find it slightly revolting/weak. However, I have had many family members who have ruined their lives by not being able to keep their emotions in check, so my environment has most likely influenced me to be the stalwart individual. Regardless, I see no benefit to crying in public, while there are a multitude of negatives. I stick by my belief that one should keep their tears to themselves; do it in your officetel. |
You can't tolerate people crying in public? Who's the weak one, again? |
I never said I couldn't tolerate it, I said it is uncomfortable. I can tolerate anything, but it doesn't mean I'm chipper about it; also, I gave a reason for my stance, even going so far as to say that it is most likely a personal flaw. Still, I have my own opinions.
p.s. I missed you kabrams, but you need to brush up on your baiting.  |
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