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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread is about health care. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread is about bears. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
Okay, please tell me how many different ethnic groups there are in Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong? Then tell me how many of these minority ethnic groups see themselves as being part of another neighboring country and what percentage of the population do they make up? Also how many of these Asians countries that you mentioned sit on such vast supplies of Energy that the rest of the world is prepared to fund armies of despots in order to secure said energy supply? |
Fairly monolithic Arab countries include:
-Morocco
-Tunisia
-Algeria
-Saudi Arabia
-Qatar
-UAE
-Oman
-Libya
-Jordan
And honestly, Egypt and Syria are for the most part, but an argument can be made that they aren't.
And what of those countries has the US funded/defended dictators/despots/kings?
-Saudi
-Egypt
-Jordan
Wowwww, so many!
What countries has the US been fairly absent from and certainly not contributed to that country's despotism:
-Libya
-Syria
Blade, the arab world is screwed up. A lot of it is their own fault. Have you ever visited the Middle East? You'll see how focused on pointless BS they are.
In contrast, there are Indonesia and Malaysia. Indonesia has both oil and plenty of diversity. The USA has "interfered" in its affairs off and on since it became a country. Last time I checked, it was doing pretty well. Amazing huh?
And Malaysia is more diverse than any Arab country as well. Was quite unstable in the 50s, yet it is more prosperous than any Arab country now, that is for sure.
Honestly, I have more hope for Bangladesh than I do for most Arab countries. Why? Because it isn't caught up in Islamic BS (ie, making religion one of its top 3 of priorities, and thinking Israel/Palestine is vital to national interests). |
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dragon777
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: |
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I just find it funny that Anericans can not understand the concept of
universal healthcare. Not all Americans but just a few ignorant and nieve
few!!!! |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:17 am Post subject: Good news on Health Care? |
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Time to resurrect this thread.
A Milestone in the Health Care Journey
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[T]he Reid bill's fiscal strategy, and its vision of how to "bend the curve," almost completely follows Baucus' path from September. Baucus' bill was the first to establish the principle that Congress could expand coverage while reducing the federal deficit; now that's the standard not only for the Senate but also the House reform legislation. And, perhaps even more importantly, the Reid bill maintains virtually all of Baucus ideas' for shifting the medical payment system away from today's fee-for-service model toward an approach that more closely links compensation for providers to results for patients. In the Reid bill, there is some backtracking from Baucus' most aggressive reform proposals, but not much.
Almost everything Baucus proposed to control long-term costs have survived into the final bill. And, with only a few exceptions, that's just about all the systemic reforms analysts from the center to the left have identified as the most promising strategies for changing the economic incentives in the medical system. (The public competitor to private insurance companies championed by the Left would affect who writes the checks in the medical system, but not what the checks are written to pay for.) Most of the other big ideas for controlling costs (such as medical malpractice reform) tend to draw support primarily among Republicans. And since virtually, if not literally, none of them plan to support the final health care bill under any circumstances, the package isn't likely to reflect much of their thinking.
In their November 17 letter to Obama, the group of economists led by Dr. Alan Garber of Stanford University, identified four pillars of fiscally-responsible health care reform. They maintained that the bill needed to include a tax on high-end "Cadillac" insurance plans; to pursue "aggressive" tests of payment reforms that will "provide incentives for physicians and hospitals to focus on quality" and provide "care that is better coordinated"; and establish an independent Medicare commission that can continuously develop and implement "new efforts to improve quality and contain costs." Finally, they said the Congressional Budget Office "must project the bill to be at least deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window and deficit reducing thereafter."
As OMB Director Peter Orszag noted in an interview, the Reid bill met all those tests. The CBO projected that the bill would reduce the federal deficit by $130 billion over its first decade and by as much as $650 billion in its second. (Conservatives, of course, consider those projections unrealistic, but CBO is the only umpire in the game, and Republicans have been happy to trumpet its analyses critical of the Democratic plans.) "Let's use the metric of that letter," said Orszag, "If you go down the checklist . . . this passes the bar." |
Read the whole thing. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Democrats have 60.
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/12/democrats_get_their_60_votes_for_health_care_now_what.php
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What Did the CBO Say?
The bill would cost an average of $87 billion a year for the first ten years. It would expand coverage to about 30 million Americans. It is projected to reduce the deficit by $132 billion over the next ten years.
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This figure can't be trusted, because the initiative starts to really bleed after ten years. That's because they're counting as income funding for an entitlement that doesn't kick in for another five years; of course that funding is not income, its what amounts to the corpus on a trust fund for what will eventually become another entitlement burden.
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What Problems Still Lurk?
As the NYT observes, since no Republican is voting for this bill, each of the 60 Democrats has veto power. So with a Senate vote and another vote after the House and Senate bills are reconciled, there is still room for a conservative Democrat to make a fuss over health care to get special treatment from the bill. The NYT reported that: "Mr. Nelson issued a pointed warning that he would vote against the measure if any changes were not to his liking." So now it appears that Nelson, not Joe Lieberman, is the senatorial fellow who sees himself as the keystone in the precarious archway. |
Reconciling the House and Senate bills are a source of possible hope for progressives (hell, for anyone who wants a truly robust bill), whereas its also an opportunity for obstructionism. This one isn't over, but for right now, the Senate has 60. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dragon777 wrote: |
I just find it funny that Anericans can not understand the concept of
universal healthcare. Not all Americans but just a few ignorant and nieve
few!!!! |
Universal healthcare is more likely under a free market system than a Socialist one. We have universal food, car, clothing and shelter under the free market. Why wouldn't the same occur in a medicine free market? |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
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I can give you a dozen examples of socialist universal healthcare.
can you give me one free market example? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
I can give you a dozen examples of socialist universal healthcare.
can you give me one free market example? |
You mean Aussie, Canada, NZ, Britain and such, right? Those systems do not provide universal coverage. If you are sick you go on the waiting list. You might get the help you need but if it doesn't come in time you are screwed. How is that universal coverage?
No completely free market exists on Earth. At least I can't think of one. How can I provide an example of something thats enemy doesn't allow to exist? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
I can give you a dozen examples of socialist universal healthcare.
can you give me one free market example? |
You mean Aussie, Canada, NZ, Britain and such, right? Those systems do not provide universal coverage. If you are sick you go on the waiting list. You might get the help you need but if it doesn't come in time you are screwed. How is that universal coverage?
No completely free market exists on Earth. At least I can't think of one. How can I provide an example of something thats enemy doesn't allow to exist? |
The socialist health care systems in the world all offer health care that is substandard as compared to what is available in the US. The socialist system rations health care, puts citizens on waiting lists where they wait and suffer, die while waiting or go to the US and get treatment if they are wealthy. These systems are expensive and contribute to the debt and coming collapse of the World's currencies and issuing governments. Even more telling is the overlooked fact that the US subsidizes these socialist health care systems and governments, directly and indirectly, with its own socialist laws in the amount of tens of billions of dollars per year.
If the US ever allowed a free market in health care and insurance, and ended the subsidies for the socialist health care systems of the socialist Western countries, the national socialist health systems would collapse in just a few years. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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wait, you guys actually believe that scores and scores of people in UHC countries die because of the dreaded Waiting List (just like Americans would die to dreaded Death Panels)?
I guess I often forget that this board is delusional. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
wait, you guys actually believe that scores and scores of people in UHC countries die because of the dreaded Waiting List (just like Americans would die to dreaded Death Panels)?
I guess I often forget that [D} is b [ell] is delusional. |
Just one example out of thousands of types of procedures. Thousands are dying every year due to socialized medicine. It's an evil, fascist-socialist catastrophy.
| Quote: |
Can J Surg. 2009 June; 52(3): 229�234. PMCID: PMC2689726
Copyright � 2009 Canadian Medical Association
Bariatric surgery waiting times in Canada
Nicolas V. Christou, MD, PhD and Evangelos Efthimiou, MD
From the Division of General Surgery, Department of Surgery, McGill University, McGill University Health Centre
The survey response rate was 85%. All centres determined whether patients were eligible for bariatric surgery based on the National Institutes of Health criteria. Patients entered the queue as �office contacts� and moved through the queue, with the exit point being completion of the procedure. In 2007, a total of 6783 patients were waiting for bariatric surgery and 1313 procedures were performed in Canada. Assuming these trends are maintained, the calculated average waiting time for bariatric surgery in Canada is just over 5 years (6783/1313). The Fraser Institute and the Wait Times Alliance benchmarks for reasonable surgical waiting times vary from 8 weeks for cancer surgery to 18 months for cosmetic surgery.
At one Canadian centre, 12 patients died while waiting for bariatric surgery.
Conclusion
The waiting times for bariatric surgery are the longest of any surgically treated condition. Given the significant reduction in the relative risk of death with bariatric surgery (40%�89% depending on the study), the current waiting times for the procedure in Canada are unacceptable. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Another personal history. Canada is so bad, it's better to go back to the Philippines:
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�I was born in Canada and have taken Canada�s socialized health care system for granted all my life that it was good � until we needed it.
My father in law, a Filipino immigrant, wasn�t feeling well so we took him in for a check up. We waited for a few more months until the testing could be arranged, and then more waiting since there were, �complications.� He had a lung cancer and we would have to wait for �6 to 8 months� before scheduling treatment.
I think he knew he was going to die and took charge. After a few months of constantly coughing, we tried to pester the doctors to speed up the waiting time. He tried his own remedies to alleviate his worsening condition like drinking Ginger soup but he could delay no longer. He and his wife decided to go back to the Philippines for treatment. The doctors there had immediately started treating him with radiation but it was already too late. He had developed a fast growing form of lung cancer and died a few weeks later.
The doctors seemed concerned but wouldn�t change the waiting times due to limited available machines and Canada�s administrative central control in this field.
The fact the Canadian health care system pretends to be based on equality hides the fact it is a socialist experiment that destroys human life and can never be sufficient enough to heal life when needed. The carrot in Canada�s healthcare system is the so called �affordability for everyone� promise, but it is an inherently bad way to go due to its built in socialization. Lives are constantly lost. Ted Harlson (Toronto, Canada)� |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Tue. Sep. 23 2008 11:29 PM ET
A man who died while waiting 34 hours for care in a Winnipeg emergency room has been identified.
Brian Sinclair, 45, died at the Winnipeg Health Sciences Centre (WHSC) in what some are calling the worst emergency room failure in Manitoba's history.
Sinclair, who was reportedly homeless, arrived at the emergency room on Friday at 3 p.m. He was finally attended to at 1 a.m. on Sunday and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority said he was pronounced dead a short time later.
"For reasons we can't explain right now, he was never presented at the triage desk where we have triage nurses that assess someone's clinical situation," said Dr. Brock Wright, the head of the WRHA.
Wright now confirms what CTV Winnipeg reported Monday - that Sinclair sat dead in the waiting room for some time before anyone realized he had passed away.
A patient in the same hospital waiting room as Sinclair says he told nurses and security workers he was concerned about the man -- but says he was told they were too busy to check on him.
The witness -- who spoke to CTV Winnipeg on the condition of anonymity -- said he was in the waiting room Friday evening. Sinclair, who had both his legs amputated, was sitting nearby in a wheelchair and appeared to be sleeping.
The witness said when he returned to the waiting area the next night Sinclair was sitting in the exact same position.
"I didn't think he was asleep, so we went to tell a nurse," said the witness, who was there with his wife. "The nurse said 'We'll go and check,' [but] nobody ever went and checked on him.
The witness said he waited an hour before asking another nurse to check on Sinclair but the nurse told him she was too busy and couldn't check right away.
The witness claims he told a security officer of the man's condition, but said the guard told him the case would be "too much paperwork." |
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