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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: |
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704081704574652651879809462.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular
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What followed this public apology was all too predictable. Mr. Reid personally called President Obama and a handful of presumed leaders of the so-called African-American community�Julian Bond, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson among them�to beg forgiveness for his racial sin.
To no one's surprise, all of those to whom apologies were extended responded by accepting Mr. Reid's apology and saying that the nation had more important issues to deal with, such as health care and national security.
As I have observed coverage of this incident by the media and captains of the African-American community, I cannot help but be reminded of former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, who made remarks praising Strom Thurmond in 2002. Mr. Lott said of the segregationist: "When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we [Mississippians] voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years either."
When Mr. Lott's controversy erupted, he apologized repeatedly and sincerely to one and all�even groveling on Black Entertainment Network�all to no avail. Black leaders were unforgiving and persisted in demanding that he either resign from his position or be removed. In the end, they got what they wanted.
When Rush Limbaugh wanted to buy into the St. Louis Rams last year, many of the same individuals who instantly accepted Mr. Reid's apology expressed outrage over allegedly racist statements made by Mr. Limbaugh, despite the fact that zero evidence of these statements existed. They demanded that his participation in the bid be rejected. Ultimately, they got what they wanted.
It's certainly true that racial incidents are not all created equal. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Again, what Trent Lott said was substantially worse by any rational measure than what Harry Reid said. Further, it wasn't "black leaders" that pushed Lott out of office, it was the Republican Party.
At this point, anyone still trying to compare Harry Reid's situation to Trent Lotts is just trying to spread partisan propaganda through the most disingenuous and deceptive of means. Maybe it was understandable as some sort of knee-jerk reaction, but everyone has had some time to think about it. The only people who haven't seen reason are the people who don't care about the truth, about rationality, or about reasonability, but rather only care about trying to score political points through any means possible. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| He is one of their own, Pkang. They will not ever see the point, let alone concede it. They will explain it away as long as necessary -- I especially like the "we have more important things to discuss" line. But just wait until the shoe falls on the other foot... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| But just wait until the shoe falls on the other foot... |
You mean like a Republican saying something obviously more racist than what Harry Reid said? Like, for instance, Michael Steele's comment? A comment which he is still in office despite having made?
How much of a shoe falling on the other foot do you want? I gave a number of examples in this thread of prominent Republican politicians saying things as bad or (for the most part) much worse than what Harry Reid said without being forced out of office. Why doesn't any of this register for you? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Fox"]
As regards the source of the first quote...it's not even sure it is true or if true that it is not taken out of context as even the site itself points out.
The second one is/was true, although McCain later clarified his words as relating only to his captors and not to all Asian people. This was all discussed on these very forums before back when McCain was running for president. As regards said comments if certain people regularly tortured you, I doubt you'd be feeling full of the milk of human kindness yourself. Of course it doesn't justify the slur, but it's understandable he feels the way he does.
http://asianweek.com/2000_02_24/feature_mccainapology.html
As the above link makes clear he was referring to his "Vietnamese wartime captors as gooks." Predictably the media and his opponents picked it up and ran with it as if he hated all Asians.
As for the third we have one person's unsubstantiated testimony. For all we know it could be completely made up.
So in sum we have two comments that we don't know for sure that are true, and one comment that was widely taken out of context. And when we put the one comment back into context even though it remains a racial slur for which McCain should (and did) apologize for, it wasn't as if it was totally unprovoked. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Right.
Fox, just as I understand J. McCain's North Vietnamese captors dehumanized and hated him for his role in the war; I understand how J. McCain, whom they imprisoned and mistreated, would dehumanize and hate them right back.
In neither case does this seem an instance of racial prejudice. It seems clearly based on actual, lived experience.
The world is a harsh place and not everyone likes each other. That is life. Pick another example. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Right.
Fox, just as I understand J. McCain's North Vietnamese captors dehumanized and hated him for his role in the war; I understand how J. McCain, whom they imprisoned and mistreated, would dehumanize and hate them right back.
In neither case does this seem an instance of racial prejudice. It seems clearly based on actual, lived experience.
The world is a harsh place and not everyone likes each other. That is life. Pick another example. |
How is this relevant to what we're talking about? Your original point, if you remember, was how the mainstream media treats a racial slur by a Republican and Democrat differently. Now you're trying to lecture people about what's it like to be a POW. Stay on topic. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Another rigid and angry contrarian.
It is very relevant inasmuch as it responds to Fox's allegations re: J. McCain, and Urban Myth's response to them.
Your move to suppress this and limit the parameters of this discussion only reaffirms my overall argument of hypocrisy here. For you will defend, defend, and defend to the death any and all alleged Democratic improprieties (the equivalent of "my country, right or wrong!") but you have no patience or tolerance and will thus not even listen to or allow others to hear explanations having to do with Republicans and the allegations that have been hurled their way. 
Oh yeah, and this kind of apologetic talk...
| Old Gil wrote: |
| The use of the word "Negro" sounds pretty dated and insensitive to most people. However... |
Were you here when Bobster began lecturing me on my use of "you" -- another case of willful misinterpretation of a plural as a singular -- and then I responded with a more easy to understand "you people" and he promptly accused me of bigotry and racism?
It is when people like you and your coreligionists go into PR mode for Harry Reid's use of "negro" but move into the attack when people like me say "you people" when there is not even a racist context or racial discussion involved, just a knee-jerk absolute prohibition against "you people" in all cases, that forms my views on this.
You people need to get a grip.
It is pretty frustrating, though, is it no? How about an environment where people are not accusing each other of "racism" day in and day out in American politics? I want to rewrite John Lennon's "Imagine" to include that impossible dream. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I think it's pretty clear segregation as it existed in the United States was a racist policy. |
The Jim Crow implementation certainly was, yes, and Thurmond's support of those laws certainly made him a racist. I just wanted to make the point that segregation in and of itself wouldn't be racist.
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| Again, what Trent Lott said was substantially worse by any rational measure than what Harry Reid said. |
I don't buy this. I would argue that Reid's comment is indicative of the much more insidious nature of the racism normally found in the Democratic party. What Reid's comments reveal is that he only views black Americans as tools to be used to garner more political power.
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| It's absolutely clear this man said something so politically damaging and racist that his own party turned on him. It was Republicans that hounded him out of office. They could have chosen to support him, but they didn't, and it's fairly obvious why. |
...because what he said was racist and because Republicans lack the support of the minority coalitions.
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George W. Bush to the president of Brazil 6/2/2001, "You have blacks too? "
Jon McCain on his campaign bus 3/1/2000, "I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."
Sarah Palin to colleagues at a meal, "So Sambo beat the bitch." (in reference to Obama triumphing over Clinton) |
Did you check any of these quotes? Those two attributed to Bush and Palin have never been verified. The one made by McCain was directed solely at his Vietnamese captors... and he didn't apologize for it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Right.
Fox, just as I understand J. McCain's North Vietnamese captors dehumanized and hated him for his role in the war; I understand how J. McCain, whom they imprisoned and mistreated, would dehumanize and hate them right back.
In neither case does this seem an instance of racial prejudice. It seems clearly based on actual, lived experience.
The world is a harsh place and not everyone likes each other. That is life. Pick another example. |
Don't be ridiculous. Saying racial prejudice doesn't count as racial prejudice as long as the person can cite some reason for it is silly. If you want to argue McCain's racial prejudice is justified, that's fine. But saying, "I hate the gooks," is racial prejudice, period. It's prejudgment (specifically, of hatred) against a racial group.
I don't care if you and TUM think its understandable or not; plenty of things that would be considered unethical are also understandable. The point is this: Republicans say racist things and avoid being removed from office as a result. That's it. It doesn't matter if you think given racist comments are justified or understandable. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I think it's pretty clear segregation as it existed in the United States was a racist policy. |
The Jim Crow implementation certainly was, yes, and Thurmond's support of those laws certainly made him a racist. I just wanted to make the point that segregation in and of itself wouldn't be racist. |
Segregation in and of itself isn't necessarily racist. Black segregation in America was undeniably racist, and this was the sort of segregation being discussed. So while you're welcome to make an abstract point about the nature of segregation, it's irrelevent to the thread in question.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Again, what Trent Lott said was substantially worse by any rational measure than what Harry Reid said. |
I don't buy this. |
Of course you don't, you're conservative. You come to a decision, and then try to justify it, not the reverse.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| I would argue that Reid's comment is indicative of the much more insidious nature of the racism normally found in the Democratic party. What Reid's comments reveal is that he only views black Americans as tools to be used to garner more political power. |
Argue what you like, it doesn't make it true. Anyone reading the entire quote from Reid can very easily see it's nothing more than an analysis of Obama's electability and how his race might impact that. Maybe you should read the article Old Gil posted. It's a very thorough analysis, written from the perspective of a black linguist.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| ...because what he said was racist and because Republicans lack the support of the minority coalitions. |
First of all, this is nonsense. Because Republicans lack the support of minority coalitions, minority coalitions don't form a sizeable portion of their voting base. As such, supporting Lott wasn't likely to cost them a substantial number of minority votes, as they weren't going to get those votes anyway. The Republican quotes in the article I posted make it clear that Republicans realized Lott's words were so ridiculous that it would hurt their credibility not only with minority coalitions, but with Americans and indeed, the world, if they backed him.
Republicans at the time realized how horrible what he said was. Modern conservatives have managed to make themselves forget. Kind of like how modern conservatives have managed to make themselves forget about the various terrorist attacks that occured during the Bush presidency. Strange that forgetfulness seems to be such a prominent conservative trait!
Finally, why do Republicans lack the support of minority coalitions? Because of their own actions. As certain parties in this thread have pointed out, there was a time in history when minorities would have been wise to side with the Republican Party. Modern Republicans have willfully cast away that support by actively championing policies that minorities oppose, and then attempting to disenfranchise said minorities when they started voting Democrat. Republicans have made their bed on this issue, and they can lie in it.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Did you check any of these quotes? Those two attributed to Bush and Palin have never been verified. The one made by McCain was directed solely at his Vietnamese captors... and he didn't apologize for it. |
Quibble all you like on the matter, I'm certainly not going to engage in it; if you want to say "It didn't happen, it didn't happen!" I'll just shrug and move on. If you prefer, we can focus purely on the example of Michael Steele's racist quote and it's failure to drive him from office, especially since the fallout from it is occuring roughly concurrently with Reid's fallout. None of the conservatives in this thread seem too interested in addressing that, though, because then they'd have to come to terms with the fact that there's no real hypocrisy here at all.
So far in this entire thread, thecount is the only conservative to make a remotely intelligent case. Everyone else is just despartely trying to defend a totally invalid GOP talking point specifically designed to try to score points in the upcoming elections. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The second one is/was true, although McCain later clarified his words as relating only to his captors and not to all Asian people. |
Wow, someone making a racist comment, then clarifying latter to make it seem less racist. What a strange political phenomenon. There's another man whose comments -- which could be construed as racist if one were inclined -- have received substantial justification and vindication after the fact. His name is Harry Reid. Ever hear of him?
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| This was all discussed on these very forums before back when McCain was running for president. As regards said comments if certain people regularly tortured you, I doubt you'd be feeling full of the milk of human kindness yourself. Of course it doesn't justify the slur, but it's understandable he feels the way he does. |
And it's understandable that Mr. Reid might feel cause to comment on how Barack Obama's race could impact his chances in a general election, bringing up such factors as his accent and his skin tone, which regardless of what we might want to believe are factors in the minds of some Americans. It's so understandable, in fact, that when he apologized, the apology was accepted.
Remember, I'm not making the case that Mr. McCain should have been thrown out of office. Unlike what Gopher ignorantly assumes, I'm not in the habit of calling for people's resignations simply because they say something offensive. My purpose is to show that Republicans have said racist things and none the less remained in office. With Mr. McCain it's very clear the conservatives here were willing to consider why he said what he said, be understanding, and give him the benefit of the doubt. To not do the same with Mr. Reid is, to use a word Gopher chose to introduce into this thread, hypocrisy.
Harry Reid is a politician, and reaching his goals require a President who is willing to work with him on them. Of course he's going to consider the electability of a Democratic candidate before supporting them, and because of the state America is in, in Barack Obama's case his skin tone and dialect factored into said consideration. Many factors which should be irrelevent are not irrelevent on America's political stage, and as such they must be considered by a political party.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| So in sum we have two comments that we don't know for sure that are true, and one comment that was widely taken out of context. And when we put the one comment back into context even though it remains a racial slur for which McCain should (and did) apologize for, it wasn't as if it was totally unprovoked. |
And one by Michael Steele. Care to respond to that one? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| [ My purpose is to show that Republicans have said racist things and none the less remained in office. ? |
Okay, I'll give you McCain and Michael Steele. Who else besides these two have made racist slurs and remained in office? And let's keep it relevant to today's political climate. And saying racist things is not limited to Republicans. Byrd is a good example.
And as far as Reid goes I don't think it was racist per se, but it was certainly thoughtless and offensive. But like McCain he apologized and like McCain his apology was accepted.
EDIT: And Steele's comment doesn't seem to be any worse than Reid's...so now we're 2 for 2.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| [ My purpose is to show that Republicans have said racist things and none the less remained in office. ? |
Okay, I'll give you McCain and Michael Steele. Who else besides these two have made racist slurs and remained in office in political climate? And let's keep it relevant to today's political climate. And saying racist things is not limited to Republicans. Byrd is a good example.
And as far as Reid goes I don't think it was racist per se, but it was certainly thoughtless and offensive. But like McCain he apologized and like McCain his apology was accepted. |
Do you think what Reid said was true? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| [ My purpose is to show that Republicans have said racist things and none the less remained in office. ? |
Okay, I'll give you McCain and Michael Steele. Who else besides these two have made racist slurs and remained in office in political climate? And let's keep it relevant to today's political climate. And saying racist things is not limited to Republicans. Byrd is a good example.
And as far as Reid goes I don't think it was racist per se, but it was certainly thoughtless and offensive. But like McCain he apologized and like McCain his apology was accepted. |
Do you think what Reid said was true? |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I don't think it was racist per se, but it was certainly thoughtless and offensive. |
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