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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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 Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
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People have every right to express themselves in (relative) anonymity if they choose. I don't (many people here are aware of my identity) but I strongly defend a person's right to express opinions which, because of the often ridiculous repression of ideas which do not pass the litmus test for political correctness, are inadvisable to express in normal conversation where people, particularly women, are very likely to attempt social sanctions against. This is a very troubling fact of modern existance. Modern feminism has made tremendous strides in repressing free speech. Valid ideas get pushed to the margin by the prevailing structures of hegemony. Anonymous conversations have a perfectly valid reason for being. Both sides of the discussion have been more frank here than they would be in person -- including you.  |
Guess what buddy you're not Thomas Paine. Don't make this into a free speech issue. Making somebody ashamed because they said "she was asking for it" does not violate anybody's free speech, it just highlights who the MOD EDIT |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Who here said 'she asked for it'? I didn't. Aside from the personal attack, which (ahem) I rather doubt you would make in person, it seems to be misdirected. Yes, there are posters other than myself who indicated that they thought the woman's previous conduct might be pertinent to the case. This has been a contentious issue in the U.S. courts for decades. The U.S. supreme court has taken up the issue on numerous occasions and some evidence is now allowable that previously was not. I do not see any reason why another poster should have to tolerate your abusive language for bringing up an opinion which has been openly and legitimately discussed in formal legal settings for decades.
| Old Gil wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
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People have every right to express themselves in (relative) anonymity if they choose. I don't (many people here are aware of my identity) but I strongly defend a person's right to express opinions which, because of the often ridiculous repression of ideas which do not pass the litmus test for political correctness, are inadvisable to express in normal conversation where people, particularly women, are very likely to attempt social sanctions against. This is a very troubling fact of modern existance. Modern feminism has made tremendous strides in repressing free speech. Valid ideas get pushed to the margin by the prevailing structures of hegemony. Anonymous conversations have a perfectly valid reason for being. Both sides of the discussion have been more frank here than they would be in person -- including you. |
Guess what buddy you're not Thomas Paine. Don't make this into a free speech issue. Making somebody ashamed because they said "she was asking for it" does not violate anybody's free speech, it just highlights who MOD EDIT. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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If the man is Korean, she was asking for it.
If not, well, then it was rape.
Everybody clear on that? |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Before we condemn the Korean media- Duke Lacrosse team anyone? |
What did the media do that was wrong? From what I remember, the media did okay, but some in the general public jumped to conclusions and openly condemned the Duke lacrosse team as rapists until it came out they really were innocent.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Yes its a possibility, but the woman's claim should be taken at face value pending an investigation. Of course the man should retain the idea of innocent until proven guilty in the courtroom. |
People should keep an open mind that there's a possibility the man is a rapist, but that there's also a possibility the man is innocent. A lot of rapes happen but, as in the case of the Duke lacrosse team, sometimes the accusations are not always true. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. That's why I think an open mind is needed.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| But this whole she was asking for it, and she's just a tramp and blah blah blah is so off. |
I don't think people are excusing a rape if one did occur. It's kind of like when the Korean church bus rolled through Afghanistan, one can only wonder what they were thinking.
Whether or not this lady was or wasn't raped, I think her parents do need to have a talk with her about the way she's living. It's just not smart for women to get drunk and go to bathhouses with strange men. I can't believe that I, of all people, am one of the very few that sees the flaws in that kind of lifestyle.  |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Yes, there are posters other than myself who indicated that they thought the woman's previous conduct might be pertinent to the case. |
Perhaps, you're probably the only one on here whose girlfriend isn't a barfly/bathhousefly.  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Before we condemn the Korean media- Duke Lacrosse team anyone? |
What did the media do that was wrong? From what I remember, the media did okay, but some in the general public jumped to conclusions and openly condemned the Duke lacrosse team as rapists until it came out they really were innocent. |
And we see the same sort of response in this thread regarding this guy. "We should take the woman's claim at face value," implying we should assume guilt until innocence is proven. "We don't know all the facts," implying that until more information comes to light, we should assume the man is guilty.
This whole, "If a woman says it was rape it must have been rape, and if you question it you're a misogynist!" mindset is really dangerous. Our courts work on the basis of assuming innocence until guilt is proven. It seems like a pretty good principle, and there's nothing misogynistic about pointing out that this guy could very well be innocent, especially in light of the fact that our information primarily comes from a national media with a tendency towards anti-foreigner bias, particularly with regards to sex crimes. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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SoCalRich
Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles and San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
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| typical of any cowardly loser who writes on the internet what he would never say in person and finds satisfaction in that |
I think you should be ashamed of that statement. I am fairly certain you would not have the courage say that to someone's face.
People have every right to express themselves in (relative) anonymity if they choose. I don't (many people here are aware of my identity) but I strongly defend a person's right to express opinions which, because of the often ridiculous repression of ideas which do not pass the litmus test for political correctness, are inadvisable to express in normal conversation where people, particularly women, are very likely to attempt social sanctions against. This is a very troubling fact of modern existance. Modern feminism has made tremendous strides in repressing free speech. Valid ideas get pushed to the margin by the prevailing structures of hegemony. Anonymous conversations have a perfectly valid reason for being. Both sides of the discussion have been more frank here than they would be in person -- including you. |
Hey, I would totally call someone out in person on their lack of empathy for someone else. I have before and will in the future. The troubling fact of modern existence in my opinion is that people write whatever they feel like on the internet and get their feelings hurt when somebody calls them out on it, which results in a discussion that isn't one bit constructive (hopefully ours can be). I think that keeping that type of mentality is a detriment to our society. I've read a lot of the posts and comments here and I question whether or not they believe the things that they type.
I've also noticed that this leads to ridiculous sarcasm when speaking in person. (This may or may not apply to you). Saying what you really mean but following up with a "Just kidding" so you won't get punched in the face. I am noticing that some of my friends that do this are the ones on message boards who flame people and constantly say what they would never say in person. Sometimes I can't tell if they are telling the truth or not, it's ridiculous. Needless to say, I am not friends with them anymore. Who wants to be friends with someone like that? That is an example of why that is detrimental to our society.
But all in all, Trevor, I appreciate that we can have a logical discussion without acting like immature and ignorant people. That is what is constructive and help us grow in our relationships and personal life.
I also think that because you have little faith in what the Korean media writes, you should also have little faith in what your country's media writes. You being a minority in Korea should now feel empathetic towards minorities in your own country. They have some of the same problems that some expats are expressing. Distrustful, skewed, biased news in the media is not just a Korean thing. So why back up your points with American news? Remember O.J.? Ask yourself this: Did you think he was guilty or not guilty prior to the trial? This is hypothetical as everybody's hind-sight is 20/20. Many black people assumed a position that O.J. was innocent before the trial took place. Are they wrong? Well you know how it ends but still who knows, right? I know the case we are discussing in this post is not murder but look at how some people here are defending this American GI when a proper trial hasn't even taken place. Some of the people here have said the Korean media or the Korean police are corrupt and hate expats. Well a majority of the African Americans I knew at that time and Af.Am leaders said the same thing about America. He ended up being not guilty, when a lot of people in this country (and still to this day) are sure that he did it (even people in the American media hint at this). Almost every white person I know say this (when there are no black people around). (Sorry to generalize if you are white and black, but come on, people were talking about it freakin' ALL of the time).
Most of the time, the news is going for the most shocking story. So race crimes hit high on the list. If it takes a little change in wording then they are fine with it. For example, why was it relevant for the news to say that an illegal immigrant from Mexico was driving drunk and killed someone? It wasn't relevant for the Korean newspaper to state that it was an American G.I. either. Small example of how both media systems do this to cause people to take sides in a case where there hasn't yet been a public release of evidence or a trial. And when it goes to trial, people get screwed or people get their justice. ANYWHERE you go. So just because we are Americans, doesn't mean we have to defend the actions (or inaction) of this guy or this woman. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Since we're all on wild flights of fancy right now, I'd like to go on one myself that says the girl could have been raped.
When you're spending the night in a gymjilbang, it eventually gets to a time of night when most people are asleep and nothing is happening. That's around 3 or 4 am. Also, lots of gymjilbangs have separated sleep areas that are dark and closed off from the light open-all-night area. I know I've gone there with a friend-with-benefits and was sorely tempted to try something when 4am rolled around and we were the only conscious ones in the darkened room. She stopped me but not right away, seemed she was thinking about it too. If she was more drunk, or I was more stupid, we might have kept going. (And, for the racists among us, she was American.)
Now replace me with a slightly more horny and stupid guy, and replace the woman with a super-naive drunken semi-hottie, and recreate the quiet, dark, 4am time in the sleeping area, and the insert one insomniac ajeossi who sees a little rhythmic motion where none should be, and finally place in a few whispered "anyo"s, and you've got all the ingredients necessary to make this an accurate news story. Its not THAT far-fetched.
She would be an idiot, and he would also be an idiot, but two idiots meeting at a bar, having a bit too much to drink, and stumbling into a gymjilbang is actually a very, very common event.
Last edited by mateomiguel on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SoCalRich
Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles and San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Before we condemn the Korean media- Duke Lacrosse team anyone? |
What did the media do that was wrong? From what I remember, the media did okay, but some in the general public jumped to conclusions and openly condemned the Duke lacrosse team as rapists until it came out they really were innocent.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Yes its a possibility, but the woman's claim should be taken at face value pending an investigation. Of course the man should retain the idea of innocent until proven guilty in the courtroom. |
People should keep an open mind that there's a possibility the man is a rapist, but that there's also a possibility the man is innocent. A lot of rapes happen but, as in the case of the Duke lacrosse team, sometimes the accusations are not always true. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. That's why I think an open mind is needed.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| But this whole she was asking for it, and she's just a tramp and blah blah blah is so off. |
I don't think people are excusing a rape if one did occur. It's kind of like when the Korean church bus rolled through Afghanistan, one can only wonder what they were thinking.
Whether or not this lady was or wasn't raped, I think her parents do need to have a talk with her about the way she's living. It's just not smart for women to get drunk and go to bathhouses with strange men. I can't believe that I, of all people, am one of the very few that sees the flaws in that kind of lifestyle. |
Open minded? Look at all of the posts in the beginning of this topic. Nearly all of them suggest reasons as to why or how he is innocent, including you. Even statements like, "I just felt something wrong with this news article" is irresponsible because I am sure the only reason they felt fishy about it is because the man who is accused is an American man like they are. I really didn't see any that suggested reasons as to why he might be guilty except for a few on page 4 or 5 and they were probably women (correct me if I'm wrong) : )
And, oh yeah the comment about the barfly/bathouse girlfriend or whatever you wrote. If you ask me, you can't get a good woman unless you have respect for women. It's cold hearted to defend this guy and not the woman. You won't get a good woman with that type of mentality, you more likely to get women who don't respect themselves, like barflys and girls who sleep around. And by good women, I mean one's who will make good mothers and faithful partners. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Was she allegedly assaulted or raped? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Slightly off topic- an American buddy of mine was borderline molested at a jimjilbang by some drunken adjosshis who he made the mistake of getting to friendly with over soju. Not the same thing (Just the super-touchy whathaveyou they do) but still creepy! |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
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| typical of any cowardly loser who writes on the internet what he would never say in person and finds satisfaction in that |
I think you should be ashamed of that statement. I am fairly certain you would not have the courage say that to someone's face.
People have every right to express themselves in (relative) anonymity if they choose. I don't (many people here are aware of my identity) but I strongly defend a person's right to express opinions which, because of the often ridiculous repression of ideas which do not pass the litmus test for political correctness, are inadvisable to express in normal conversation where people, particularly women, are very likely to attempt social sanctions against. This is a very troubling fact of modern existance. Modern feminism has made tremendous strides in repressing free speech. Valid ideas get pushed to the margin by the prevailing structures of hegemony. Anonymous conversations have a perfectly valid reason for being. Both sides of the discussion have been more frank here than they would be in person -- including you. |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Slightly off topic- an American buddy of mine was borderline molested at a jimjilbang by some drunken adjosshis who he made the mistake of getting to friendly with over soju. Not the same thing (Just the super-touchy whathaveyou they do) but still creepy! |
A Korean male at the Herald used to sexually harass me at work. So, I told him to cut the you-know-what or I'd tell the politico who owns the paper about it. Typical Korean response to their being called out on their base behaviour: "It was a misunderstanding. I saw American guys touching other men down there on television shows. So, I thought that this was an okay thing to do in the U.S."
This 49 year old guy from Ilsan, who's about 6'2" tall and weighs more than 200 lbs, hangs out at the Big Electric Cat in I'taewon and speaks English very well. He works at the Herald's language school near City Hall and is name is Kim. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SoCalRich wrote: |
| Open minded? Look at all of the posts in the beginning of this topic. Nearly all of them suggest reasons as to why or how he is innocent, including you. Even statements like, "I just felt something wrong with this news article" is irresponsible because I am sure the only reason they felt fishy about it is because the man who is accused is an American man like they are. |
How I can I think Cheap Charlie is innocent if I'm not even sure he exists? I don't know if he exists. I don't know if he's guilty. I don't know if he's innocent. I've consistently held those opinions throughout this thread.
Being American has nothing to do with my opinion of this case. The lack of information is the primary issue, along with South Korea's earned reputation for yellow journalism almost on the level of National Enquirer. I firmly believe the American men in this article are indeed guilty of raping an Iraqi girl. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/16/usa.iraq1 Why? Because reputable news sources have been reporting on this case and it appears there is damning evidence against the accused.
While it's possible the American in the Korean news article exists and is guilty, I need more compelling evidence than a journalist stating, "Mr. A raped Mrs. Lee." For starters, I would like to hear what the doctor who examined the alleged victim has to say. If that doctor comes out and says they found semen matching the DNA of the accused along with vaginal bruising and tearing consistent with rape, I will be for the accused to receive a bullet in the head. Until then, I'll withhold judgment on whether or not he is innocent, guilty, or if he even exists.
And any respect I have or don't have for the lady in the article will never affect her. Instead, she needs to get some self-respect and stop getting drunk and going to bathhouses with cheap men that she just met. Self-respect is the only respect that will help her. I'm irrelevant to her. Besides, I think I've actually shown less respect for the guy than the girl. I keep calling him cheap and think he possibly deserves a bullet in the head, something I've never said about the girl. |
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