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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| banjois wrote: |
I posted the link. Can't speak to it's validity, but it looks legit.
It makes it hard to hold my political ground when so many on the left consistently act like tremendous douchebags. |
So the leftists in Norway provide a wonderful standard of living for their citizens without infringing upon freedoms, while running surplus rather than a deficit, and the leftists in Venezuela come down on free speech, and you feel the need to categorize the political left by Venezuela? Come on, douchebaggery is independent of political stance.
With regards to the actual topic at hand, I'd like to thank ontheway for bringing it up. This is what supression of freedom of expression looks like. Pulling news stations off the air because they dissent. Actually stopping the expression of ideas. Totally incomparable to barring corporate interests from making monied contributions to campaigns. Any member of any corporation with an idea he wants to express can go on the air and express it. He's got that freedom, and completely so. He can even say it's the corporation's official stance if he wants. He'd be a fool to do so, but he could do it. This is speech that is protected by law. He can express it with friends, he can express it on the news, he can write an article about it, he can blog about it, he can twitter about it, and so forth. All protected.
You know what isn't speech that's protected by law? Spending money. This is why we can illegalize bribery without infringing upon anyone's rights, and this is why we can illegalize corporate political contributions without infringing upon anyone's rights. So long as no ideas are being banned, and so long as any individual citizen can express those ideas, freedom of expression is not infringed. |
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banjois
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes I worry that for some reason Scandinavia is the only place where socialism/anything remote leftist works properly. I mean, in Canada you've got a PM who's increasingly making Bush et al look like conciliatory non-partisans, and there's NOTHING of any use coming from the NDP or Liberals. They should be able to pummel him to pieces right now; he just post-poned the democratic process for a couple of months cuz he saw a storm coming, for the love of God.
And I bet you dimes to dollars you could still find loads of lefties everywhere who'd go on about how great Chavez is. I dunno, there was a piece in the Awl a few days back where a woman wrote her break-up letter to the left. It was a bit simplistic, but it rang a few bells for me. But where does one go? yeesh. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Yes, Blade, really. You cannot search the Internet for information that appears all over Google and Youtube?
Real Clear Politics
And if you dislike or morally disapprove of that source, I am sure you will find comfort in Alex Jones, with links to Jesse Ventura as well... 
Prison Planet
Some of you people know no bounds in the amount of god-like power and omniscience -- and the will to use it maliciously -- you would assign to the American govt. I suppose, though, nothing surprises me anymore. |
You're absolutely positive about then I take. No doubt at all in your mind?  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Given, Hugo Chavez's politics, rhetorical style, and well-established pattern of articulating such absurdities -- not to mention the appearence of this story in multiple press outlets? Absolutely.
What...? You don't like that? Casts your intellectually-nimble hero in a negative light, does it?
Tough. But keep laughing though. That kind of laugh almost always betrays a bankrupt position. Best to laugh like that and imply superiority and then run away from the discussion as fast as you can... |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Poor predicable Gopher. Don't worry about the sources just continue telling yourself how biased the "Liberal" media is against poor misunderstood American conservatives such as yourself.
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The spanish newspaper artcile that supposedly quoted Chavez (but doesn't) is here
http://www.abc.es/20100119/internacional-/chavez-acusa-provocar-seismo-201001191332.html
The article begins by saying that the "anti-American government of Venaulea has displayed its habitual paranoia" by accusing the US of causing Haiti's earthquake.
ABC articie then quotes an article which was published of the website of a Venezuelan state television Channel
http://www.vive.gob.ve/inf_art.php?id_not=15464&id_s=3
To state the obvious, quotung a BBC article is not the same as quoting Gordon Brown or even stating the general views of his goverment.
The VUVE article is shoddy journalism becasue it only cites sources that appear to justify its sensational headline and does not explore opposing view - the mirror image of journalism one finds in the international press about Venezuela - as this episode demonstrates. http://www.medialens.org/board/ |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
So the leftists in Norway provide a wonderful standard of living for their citizens without infringing upon freedoms, while running surplus rather than a deficit, and the leftists in Venezuela come down on free speech, and you feel the need to categorize the political left by Venezuela? Come on, douchebaggery is independent of political stance. |
Sorry to hijack, but Norway is literally dying: while it subsidizes its lavish welfare system with oil and gas revenue, the population grows only because of thousands of third world immigrants, and its social problems increase. They'll soon have to make some very difficult choices as to how much they want to sacrifice in order to be a "socialist" utopia, which is a road to hell paved with good intentions. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
So the leftists in Norway provide a wonderful standard of living for their citizens without infringing upon freedoms, while running surplus rather than a deficit, and the leftists in Venezuela come down on free speech, and you feel the need to categorize the political left by Venezuela? Come on, douchebaggery is independent of political stance. |
Sorry to hijack, but Norway is literally dying: while it subsidizes its lavish welfare system with oil and gas revenue, the population grows only because of thousands of third world immigrants, and its social problems increase. They'll soon have to make some very difficult choices as to how much they want to sacrifice in order to be a "socialist" utopia, which is a road to hell paved with good intentions. |
Happy, well off people breed at a low rate. This is just a fact. If you're suggesting we need to avoid systems which make people too well off because it results in breeding problems, then I don't know what to tell you. It's an inevitable consequence of having a happy, healthy, intelligent, well educated citizen base. There's just no avoiding it.
What is your proposed solution? You complain about countries like Norway having population issues because people are too well off, and you complain about countries like Canada where the uneducated poor breed at a higher rate. What country's population growth model are you trying to argue in favor of here? The United States is just like Canada: the uneducated poor breed more than the educated well off. Every country works that way; it's mostly poor people breed at high rates the entire world over. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Free Speech. Who needs it. Not Chavez! |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Like many posters on Dave's, Hugo Chavez does not believe in freedom of speech. It's inconvenient to allow those who are opposed to your agenda to have the right to spread any message that detracts from your own fascist-socialist propaganda. |
Huh. Too bad there aren't any widely liberal acclaimed organizations that defend civil liberties...
Sorry about all the oppression. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
Sorry to hijack, but Norway is literally dying: while it subsidizes its lavish welfare system with oil and gas revenue, the population grows only because of thousands of third world immigrants, and its social problems increase. They'll soon have to make some very difficult choices as to how much they want to sacrifice in order to be a "socialist" utopia, which is a road to hell paved with good intentions. |
Happy, well off people breed at a low rate. This is just a fact. If you're suggesting we need to avoid systems which make people too well off because it results in breeding problems, then I don't know what to tell you. It's an inevitable consequence of having a happy, healthy, intelligent, well educated citizen base. There's just no avoiding it. |
I'm saying we need to avoid socialist systems that boost a country's standard of living for a short limited time through unsustainable ponzi schemes. The outcome is that within just a few generations, a proud civilization which was thousands of years in the making, destroys itself from within./
I doubt that "happy & healthy" are direct causes of low birth rates; although they sometinmes correlate (excpet for in Russia & Ukraine, which are still 2nd-3rd world hellholes). Methinks it's more a combination of secularism, high taxes, and plain old narcissism. A great political philosopher (either Rousseau or Hobbes) once said that human dignity was stemmed from having responsibility and control over one's life: high tax rates and over-regulation usually found in socialist nations, rob their working citizens of responsibility, control, and potential; thus fewer kids is one repercussion. Bearing children is also hard enough without high taxes. Lazy despondents LOVE your welfare state, on the other hand, as they are paid to reproduce. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Blade, nice, no one has played baiting games with me and then congratulated themselves for allegedly winning some childish contest here for a while. Congratulations.
But all I see here are numerous press reports that confirm H. Chavez's position. You may be attempting to defend him through your "Chavez did not necessarily personally say this" line. But, given the man's absolute control over Venezuelan politics and especially the press, I find your position weak, untenable, and ridiculously apologetic -- like those who defended Imadinnerjacket's hostility toward Israel not so long ago. In any case, the Chavez regime and the Chavez-controlled media have articulated this absurd, conspiracy-theory-style allegation. Further, it conforms to its well-established behavior in world affairs. You seem to want to mitigate this and exonerate your man. And that is the predictable thing here. Shrug. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
Sorry to hijack, but Norway is literally dying: while it subsidizes its lavish welfare system with oil and gas revenue, the population grows only because of thousands of third world immigrants, and its social problems increase. They'll soon have to make some very difficult choices as to how much they want to sacrifice in order to be a "socialist" utopia, which is a road to hell paved with good intentions. |
Happy, well off people breed at a low rate. This is just a fact. If you're suggesting we need to avoid systems which make people too well off because it results in breeding problems, then I don't know what to tell you. It's an inevitable consequence of having a happy, healthy, intelligent, well educated citizen base. There's just no avoiding it. |
I'm saying we need to avoid socialist systems that boost a country's standard of living for a short limited time through unsustainable ponzi schemes. The outcome is that within just a few generations, a proud civilization which was thousands of years in the making, destroys itself from within./ |
There's a huge difference between a country having population issues and destroying itself. This is also not directly related to socialism; the only reason socialism in these countries has resulted in low birth rates is because it worked; it made people better off and better educated, which results in lower birth rates.
| Kimbop wrote: |
| I doubt that "happy & healthy" are direct causes of low birth rates ... |
Yes, but that's just because you're anti-socialist, and thus aren't willing to accept anything which could vindicate socialism. Ask the people in these countries how they feel and you'll find overwhelming positive support for their lifestyle.
Any country that has a well off, educated citizen base is going to start having population issues, regardless of how it gets there. This isn't a problem with socialism. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Yes, but that's just because you're anti-socialist, and thus aren't willing to accept anything which could vindicate socialism. Ask the people in these countries how they feel and you'll find overwhelming positive support for their lifestyle.
Any country that has a well off, educated citizen base is going to start having population issues, regardless of how it gets there. This isn't a problem with socialism. |
I'm antisocialist because Socialist schemes are unsustainable. You're correct in that British/French seniors adore their social welfare/pensions, but the ponzi schemes needed to fuel this luxury lead to a government encouraged underclass wrought with increasing social problems. As I said previously, difficult decisions will have to be made, and there is a breaking point. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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There is a decree still extant from Augustus Caesar ordering the young Romans to get married and start having kids sooner plus a new tax on those who didn't jump to it. It's fine if you want to say the Romans were ahead of their time, but 2,000 years ahead?
It's pretty weak to say the Norwegians shouldn't choose a system that makes them happy and comfortable for several generations because...they'll be sorry someday. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Yes, but that's just because you're anti-socialist, and thus aren't willing to accept anything which could vindicate socialism. Ask the people in these countries how they feel and you'll find overwhelming positive support for their lifestyle.
Any country that has a well off, educated citizen base is going to start having population issues, regardless of how it gets there. This isn't a problem with socialism. |
I'm antisocialist because Socialist schemes are unsustainable. |
This is an a priori assumption that's actually intuitively false. Of course socialism is sustainable. It's simply a matter of being fiscally responsible and responding to reality rather than ideals. It's only when people start demanding something for nothing, or people take socialism to unreasonable extremes, that things start to fall apart.
| Kimbop wrote: |
| You're correct in that British/French seniors adore their social welfare/pensions, but the ponzi schemes needed to fuel this luxury lead to a government encouraged underclass wrought with increasing social problems. As I said previously, difficult decisions will have to be made, and there is a breaking point. |
America has an underclass wrought with increasing social problems as well, but we don't have anywhere near the socialist benefits of the other countries in question. Underclass-related problems are going to be an issue in any society with uneven distributions of wealth.
By the way, people are using the term ponzi scheme way too frequently these days, and with insufficient thought. Social pension systems aren't ponzi schemes, because they're totally honest about what they intend to provide, and they in fact provide it as long as they're administered properly. And when don't they get administered properly? When people in the population start agitating for their removal, which leads to elected politicians actively sabotaging said projects. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
There is a decree still extant from Augustus Caesar ordering the young Romans to get married and start having kids sooner plus a new tax on those who didn't jump to it. It's fine if you want to say the Romans were ahead of their time, but 2,000 years ahead?
It's pretty weak to say the Norwegians shouldn't choose a system that makes them happy and comfortable for several generations because...they'll be sorry someday. |
Especially when the entire basis for them being sorry someday is predicated upon a population decline. You really can't win with anti-socialists. If populations go up, "The system is encouraging over-breeding. This is unsustainable!" If populations go down, "The system is encouraging under-breeding. This is unsustainable!" |
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