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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: Royal Society:Are We Alone in the Universe? |
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That is the question being discussed by leading scientists this week at:
http://royalsociety.org/Is-there-anybody-out-there/
The origins of the Royal Society lie in an "invisible college" of natural philosophers who began meeting in the mid-1640s to discuss the ideas of Francis Bacon.
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Frank Drake (Drake equation) says that new digital forms of communication might mean that advanced civilizations may become undetectable. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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There are some aspects to detecting extraterrestrial life that Drake never put into his equation, but are based on assumptions which may or may not hold true for extraterrestrial civilizations, namely:
1. value placed on knowing about extraterrestrial life.
Our species places value on knowing about this, but it is not universal across all members of it. Who is to say that just because we place value on it, that other species will as well?
2. value placed on knowing more about the universe.
Certainly with all the religious fruitcakes out there, this is nowhere universal across our species as well.
3. if 1 holds true, value placed on contacting extraterrestrial life.
As some have said, there may be lots of species out there who know about extraterrestrial life, or have heard our radio broadcasts, but just don't care. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here is something else to consider. Basically, we are an omnivorous species.
It is quite possible that there could be sentient, tool using carnivorous species out there. Now, I personally think it would be problematic for such a species to have a large enough population that could develop into a true civilization. After all, carnivorous sapients would not develop agriculture since they would be unable off of the nutrition provided by plants.
So, what if omnivorous sapients are the exception and not the rule? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
3. if 1 holds true, value placed on contacting extraterrestrial life.
As some have said, there may be lots of species out there who know about extraterrestrial life, or have heard our radio broadcasts, but just don't care. |
Or even care, but feel more secure seeing other species without being seen in return. Knowing another extra-terrestrial species exists without being known in return is a secure position of superior power. Is it really so implausible that the government of an extra-terrestrial species, upon discovering us, might not even inform its own citizens, much less us? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
Here is something else to consider. Basically, we are an omnivorous species.
It is quite possible that there could be sentient, tool using carnivorous species out there. Now, I personally think it would be problematic for such a species to have a large enough population that could develop into a true civilization. After all, carnivorous sapients would not develop agriculture since they would be unable off of the nutrition provided by plants. |
Why wouldn't carnivores develop agriculture? The basic progression would be hunting --> small herding --> full on cattle farming --> plant farming to feed your cattle farming industry. After all, a lot of the farming we ourselves do is to feed our cattle. They might reach that end by a different progression, but it's still entirely possible. After all, it doesn't take a genuis to realize that, once your herd becomes large enough, it becomes easier to bring the food to them rather than bringing them to the food. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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- the overwhelming mathematical odds are there are all kinds of life in numerous solar systems
- the gigantic distances between solar systems and galaxies makes it highly unlikely that any lifeform would travel to our planet
- the millions of years of earth's history makes it highly unlikely that even if a lifeform ever were to reach here that it would be in this particular time period
THE ODDS ARE STACKED EXTREMELY AGAINST THE LIKELIHOOD OF ANY EXTRATERRESTRIAL LIFE ARRIVING ON EARTH, LET ALONE THE ALIENS-AMONG-US SILLINESS AND OTHER SUCH DISCUSSIONS AND INTEREST IN THE POSSIBILITY. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Here is something else to consider. Basically, we are an omnivorous species.
It is quite possible that there could be sentient, tool using carnivorous species out there. Now, I personally think it would be problematic for such a species to have a large enough population that could develop into a true civilization. After all, carnivorous sapients would not develop agriculture since they would be unable off of the nutrition provided by plants. |
Why wouldn't carnivores develop agriculture? The basic progression would be hunting --> small herding --> full on cattle farming --> plant farming to feed your cattle farming industry. After all, a lot of the farming we ourselves do is to feed our cattle. They might reach that end by a different progression, but it's still entirely possible. After all, it doesn't take a genuis to realize that, once your herd becomes large enough, it becomes easier to bring the food to them rather than bringing them to the food. |
Oh, right. You make a good point there. |
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Gatsby
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Think now, folks.
If you were an alien monitoring our broadcasts (and Tweets) and you saw the news about Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer, and the town hall debates on providing health care to all Americans (just to name some recent examples), would you land in Washington, D.C. and say, "Hi, thought I'd drop by and have a little chat with you about homo sapiens joining the Intergalactic League of Planets"?
We should consider ourselves lucky they haven't dropped by with an army of Gorts. |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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The recent discoveries of so many extra-solar planets has certainly raised my interest in the subject of life on other planets.
Even finding simple life forms on another planet would be an amazing discovery; one that would raise hope for our own future I think. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
- the overwhelming mathematical odds are there are all kinds of life in numerous solar systems
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True. The real question is: are they in the billions or trillions?
Drake himself estimated the number of planets and satelites with intelligent beings on them - in just the Milky Way - is 10,000 (but it could easily be somewhere in the millions)
| VanIslander wrote: |
- the gigantic distances between solar systems and galaxies makes it highly unlikely that any lifeform would travel to our planet
- the millions of years of earth's history makes it highly unlikely that even if a lifeform ever were to reach here that it would be in this particular time period
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Also, given that the universe is 13,700 million years old, the odds in favor of intelligent beings evolving to the height of their powers and then becoming extinct countless times over are good.
Overall, we're probably looking at trillions of civilizations currently living, and, the living plus the extinct - trillions of trillions. |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:02 am Post subject: |
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I always liked Larry Niven's take on this.
The Puppeteers in his books were not only far advanced technologically, but were incredibly paranoid. The location of their home planet was a well kept secret. Only those considered insane were allowed (and were brave/insane enough to accept it) contact with other species.
Having sent a human to the galactic core, they confirm their suspicions that it is exploding. They prepare to move their entire race (and planets) to another galaxy.
Intelligent species could theoretically take any form imaginable. And some doubtless unimaginable.
His "Footfall" postulated a civilization with 'found technology,' who then attempted to invade Earth.
Considering the variety of human cultures and ideas I have read of, experienced, and heard about, the unexpected and diverse (but mostly unreachable) in the vastness of space seems very likely.
My favorite of his though, is still A World Out of Time. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Arthur Dent wrote: |
I always liked Larry Niven's take on this.
The Puppeteers in his books were not only far advanced technologically, but were incredibly paranoid. The location of their home planet was a well kept secret. Only those considered insane were allowed (and were brave/insane enough to accept it) contact with other species. |
Rather, only those who were insane -- their insanity proven by their bravery -- could come into contact with other species, because the rest were too cautious to ever leave their home planet.
But yes, his Puppeteers were a wonderful work of the imagination, and not all that unrealistic either. Any species capable of travelling between planets at any reasonable rate is capable of totally devestating another planet. As such, keeping one's home hidden would be a wise thing. In a universe where terrorism obviously does exist, technology can allow even a very tiny population to harm an immense one quite easily if they choose to.
Of course, it would also be very difficult to keep one's home planet a secret too. The Puppeteers managed because their home world wasn't orbitting a star, but for anyone with a star-orbitting home world, it would only really be a matter of time, assuming Star Trek-style "warp speed" doesn't exist. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
3. if 1 holds true, value placed on contacting extraterrestrial life.
As some have said, there may be lots of species out there who know about extraterrestrial life, or have heard our radio broadcasts, but just don't care. |
Or even care, but feel more secure seeing other species without being seen in return. Knowing another extra-terrestrial species exists without being known in return is a secure position of superior power. Is it really so implausible that the government of an extra-terrestrial species, upon discovering us, might not even inform its own citizens, much less us? |
When the first pulsars were discovered, they were kept secret for a while, because the discoverers thought they might have been signals from another civilization. The first one was called LGM-1 for "little green men". Of course, that was during the Cold War and the height of paranoia... |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Bondrock wrote: |
The recent discoveries of so many extra-solar planets has certainly raised my interest in the subject of life on other planets.
Even finding simple life forms on another planet would be an amazing discovery; one that would raise hope for our own future I think. |
I would hazard that there is a better than 50% chance of life on Mars, or even simply bacterial fossils, that will turn out to have originated on Earth; bacteria riding a meteor flung into space during the Cretaceous impact event, or some such. The sheer volume of biomass on Earth relative to the rest of the Solar System makes this highly plausible. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Who is to say that just because we place value on it, that other species will as well?
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Just who would NOT want to meet us? I say, "Fie on you. Fie! Fie!" Why this inferiority complex, this lack of pride in our species? We are the epitome of creation, the apex of history, the acme of acmedom. Given the chance, who/what would not want to learn about our parochial views of life on an artificially divided fragment of a medium-sized planet armed to the teeth in fear of others of the same species?
Race traitor!  |
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