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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: a perfect example of what's wrong with "Korean culture& |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/02/113_60399.html
I'd like to focus on a specific passage:
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This concern was highlighted recently when a 39-year-old judge reprimanded a 69-year-old man during a trial, saying the latter was behaving �rude.�
Many Koreans found the �young� judge�s remark very �inappropriate.� The oldman indeed may have behaved in an ill-mannered way. But in the Korean language, the term �beo reut eop da� (rude) is exclusively used by an older person in rebuking someone who is younger. For many Koreans, the judge�s remark was unacceptable because the role was reversed and he was 20 years junior to the oldman.
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so the 39 year old, a fully mature and grown man by any measure.. a man who has achieved a position of respect and importance in his society.
... a man who probably already treated the geezer with overdue reverence and respect because of Korean societal mores... can't finally call the ModEdit out on the carpet.. and when he does in the lightest of ways...
"many Koreans object".
MODEDIT
p.s. out of curiosity.. to all you Korean linguists out there.. is there a specific term for "rude" that can be used by younger toward the older?
or is by definition anyone older eliminated from possibly being "rude" or acting 'rudely' in the first place?  |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| No. |
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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:42 am Post subject: |
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no word.
ergo an older person cannot be rude.
My point has therefore been proven. 
what's amusing is that in Confucius' perfect world the older person would have attained the necessary level of wisdom and patience to easily navigate thru any situation without having to resort to his age. Age= wisdom is the very background of the philosophy.
Except it's a very very imperfect link.
75% of the true idiots you went to school with will remain true idiots into their senior citizenship and even at the point of death. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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The judge was doing his job.
Should the legal courts adhere to cultural traditions?
*shrug*
I guess the Western equivalent would be a judge back home dropping the f-bomb in the courtroom. Some words offend societal norms however apt to the context.
The rub: A judge needs to be respected and that partly means society has to accept the authority of the position, partly means a judge needs to act respectfully toward society. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't 예의없어요 suffice? |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Han Sang-jin, who teaches sociology at Seoul National University, said �The prevalent lack of using honorific words reflects that the Korean society has a long way to go to become a morally mature society.� |
I may be ethnocentric, but it may also be that having a vocabulary or grammar that expresses nuances of respect based on deserving it rather than by age is also morally mature.
The west could learn a lot from the importance placed on politeness here, such as it is. But to teach that it's a one-way street, that people must be polite to older people without any responsibility in return, makes younger people cynical about a system that they can see isn't fair and isn't practiced when they travel. |
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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Han Sang-jin, who teaches sociology at Seoul National University, said �The prevalent lack of using honorific words reflects that the Korean society has a long way to go to become a morally mature society.� |
I may be ethnocentric, but it may also be that having a vocabulary or grammar that expresses nuances of respect based on deserving it rather than by age is also morally mature.
The west could learn a lot from the importance placed on politeness here, such as it is. But to teach that it's a one-way street, that people must be polite to older people without any responsibility in return, makes younger people cynical about a system that they can see isn't fair and isn't practiced when they travel. |
i wouldn't necessarily take issue with a different word for rudeness in reference to younger being rude to older.
I would take issue if no word existed to refer to rudeness in reference to older to younger.
I don't know why the old man was in court, but in a confucian system where such reverence is placed on societal rules and order.. and the judge is supposed to enforce such rules and order, for the old man to have acted rudely (I have no idea what he did in court) is the perfect example of the fallacies in Confucius' thinking.
in a perfect Confucian world the old man would have been super conciliatory and felt remorse for setting such a bad example for the younger people in society.
in Korea though age is simply used as an excuse for being an ModEdit.
If you want to make the argument about what that generation had to go thru during Korea's Great Leap forward into industrialization and out of poverty, you may have a point, but that is an entirely different discussion, having little to do with age or Confucianism. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Cerberus wrote: |
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Han Sang-jin, who teaches sociology at Seoul National University, said �The prevalent lack of using honorific words reflects that the Korean society has a long way to go to become a morally mature society.� |
I may be ethnocentric, but it may also be that having a vocabulary or grammar that expresses nuances of respect based on deserving it rather than by age is also morally mature.
The west could learn a lot from the importance placed on politeness here, such as it is. But to teach that it's a one-way street, that people must be polite to older people without any responsibility in return, makes younger people cynical about a system that they can see isn't fair and isn't practiced when they travel. |
i wouldn't necessarily take issue with a different word for rudeness in reference to younger being rude to older.
I would take issue if no word existed to refer to rudeness in reference to older to younger.
I don't know why the old man was in court, but in a confucian system where such reverence is placed on societal rules and order.. and the judge is supposed to enforce such rules and order, for the old man to have acted rudely (I have no idea what he did in court) is the perfect example of the fallacies in Confucius' thinking.
in a perfect Confucian world the old man would have been super conciliatory and felt remorse for setting such a bad example for the younger people in society.
in Korea though age is simply used as an excuse for being an [Mod Edit] .
If you want to make the argument about what that generation had to go thru during Korea's Great Leap forward into industrialization and out of poverty, you may have a point, but that is an entirely different discussion, having little to do with age or Confucianism. |
Confucius isn't perfect, but neither is anything else anyone has ever come up with save for one who shall not be named so as to comply with TOS.
It's all basically the same stuff around the world- respect for age, social manners. Even in American prison you don't go around disrespecting the old guys in there.
Actually what this indicates is that Korea has people who hold a variety of opinions on the matter- some support honorifics, some want a more egalitarian style. Good for them. If it was all one way or the other, that would be a problem. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Cerberus wrote: |
in a perfect Confucian world the old man would have been super conciliatory and felt remorse for setting such a bad example for the younger people in society.
in Korea though age is simply used as an excuse for being an [Mod Edit]
If you want to make the argument about what that generation had to go thru during Korea's Great Leap forward into industrialization and out of poverty, you may have a point, but that is an entirely different discussion, having little to do with age or Confucianism. |
Yes. In actuality Confucianism is supposed to be a two way street, but after shoving this mentality thru a military dictatorship for 40 years, you just get the bastardized version we see today that Koreans still try to justify using the word 'culture'. |
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The Grumpy Senator
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Location: Up and down the 6 line
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:49 am Post subject: |
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The way this case was expliained to be (and my reaction was the same as the OPs) was that the judge used extremely inappropriate language towards the plantiff (an older individual). He basically called him a concieted child.
Even though the judge does hold a position of power, society here does not allow that person to belittle and insult a person older in age in that fashion. The judge could have handled the situation much better than the way he did.
As an American, I thought of Judge Judy. I watched some of her show at home over the Christmas break and was amazed at the way she talked to the people in her court. It does not matter what your age is, there is never a reason to talk down to people (especailly those with some power, lead by example).
As foreigners, it is sometime difficult to understand what is going on; and having only 1 or 2 paragraphs to reported a detailed story does not always give us all the information needed to take an educated stance on an issue. We should talk to others and find out more information before making statements like "This is What is Wrong with Korean Culture." You are doing the same thing as the beef protesters people on here bashed to no end. |
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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Cerberus wrote: |
| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Han Sang-jin, who teaches sociology at Seoul National University, said �The prevalent lack of using honorific words reflects that the Korean society has a long way to go to become a morally mature society.� |
I may be ethnocentric, but it may also be that having a vocabulary or grammar that expresses nuances of respect based on deserving it rather than by age is also morally mature.
The west could learn a lot from the importance placed on politeness here, such as it is. But to teach that it's a one-way street, that people must be polite to older people without any responsibility in return, makes younger people cynical about a system that they can see isn't fair and isn't practiced when they travel. |
i wouldn't necessarily take issue with a different word for rudeness in reference to younger being rude to older.
I would take issue if no word existed to refer to rudeness in reference to older to younger.
I don't know why the old man was in court, but in a confucian system where such reverence is placed on societal rules and order.. and the judge is supposed to enforce such rules and order, for the old man to have acted rudely (I have no idea what he did in court) is the perfect example of the fallacies in Confucius' thinking.
in a perfect Confucian world the old man would have been super conciliatory and felt remorse for setting such a bad example for the younger people in society.
in Korea though age is simply used as an excuse for being an ModEdit.
If you want to make the argument about what that generation had to go thru during Korea's Great Leap forward into industrialization and out of poverty, you may have a point, but that is an entirely different discussion, having little to do with age or Confucianism. |
Confucius isn't perfect, but neither is anything else anyone has ever come up with save for one who shall not be named so as to comply with TOS.
It's all basically the same stuff around the world- respect for age, social manners. Even in American prison you don't go around disrespecting the old guys in there.
Actually what this indicates is that Korea has people who hold a variety of opinions on the matter- some support honorifics, some want a more egalitarian style. Good for them. If it was all one way or the other, that would be a problem. |
I don't disagree. Even though Koreans love to criticize western culture when it comes to things like respect for elders, we all know that such respect often exists.
However, it depends on the circumstances, and such respect is never blind.
Lastly, as I noted, no one can ever use their age as an excuse or crutch for being a complete ModEdit, because most of their time there will be repercussions with the results being negative for the elderly. Age is not license for giving ddong to other adults.
(with the possible exception of the ornery old man with young kids.. in which case, everyone has a good laugh over it.) |
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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| The Grumpy Senator wrote: |
The way this case was expliained to be (and my reaction was the same as the OPs) was that the judge used extremely inappropriate language towards the plantiff (an older individual). He basically called him a concieted child.
Even though the judge does hold a position of power, society here does allow that person to belittle and insult a person older in age in that fashion. The judge could have handled the situation much better than the way he did.
As an American, I thought of Judge Judy. I watched some of her show at home over the Christmas break and was amazed at the way she talked to the people in her court. It does not matter what your age is, there is never a reason to talk down to people (especailly those with some power, lead by example).
As foreigners, it is sometime difficult to understand what is going on; and having only 1 or 2 paragraphs to reported a detailed story does not always give us all the information needed to take an educated stance on an issue. We should talk to others and find out more information before making statements like "This is What is Wrong with Korean Culture." You are doing the same thing as the beef protesters people on here bashed ot no end. |
interesting.
Granted, I of course don't know exactly what was said and by whom.
I also understand your first paragraph though I don't necessarily agree with it. For e.g. , An [Mod Edit] should be talked down to (and a bully), and in the strongest terms available. Personally I recommend stronger action than "talking down to", because that tends to be the best "cure".
The fact is some people are perfectly deserving of being belittled and talked down to, if their transgressions were eggregious enough.
Why would their age make a scintilla of difference???
(with possible exceptions of extreme immaturity in case of very young adults and senility/dementia in case of the very old)
I don't watch Judge Judy but I'll assume that for entertainment purposes, she, just like Jerry Springer, has the most daft and stupid members of our society on her show. I have no issues with such people being belittled and talked down to. Otherwise, you're sanctioning their idiocy.
interesting point re confucianism and dictatorship(s). China is having a similar problem, having suppresed it when Mao ascended to power but now wanting to resurrect it for its own purposes when it comes to govt's appropriation of land, as shown in the movie Avatar. China is trying to show the movie "Confucius" in its theaters instead. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I had already brought that article up for discussion in a few of my classes, and will be doing so in several other classes this week. I am surprised, however, that the OP doesn't seem to see how the Western social rubric (status and behavior determined by one's profession, rather than by one's age) are just as artificial and flawed as the previous Korean standards.... They aren't thrown into question as much in the US, since there aren't two active, opposing worldviews battling it out... we just kinda assume that a doctor or judge should be treated more respectfully than a garbage-collection or wait-person (not me, of course -- I am always nice, until the time comes to not be nice, and I will know when it is time to not be nice, because Dalton will tell me). |
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Cerberus
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Yeah, I had already brought that article up for discussion in a few of my classes, and will be doing so in several other classes this week. I am surprised, however, that the OP doesn't seem to see how the Western social rubric (status and behavior determined by one's profession, rather than by one's age) are just as artificial and flawed as the previous Korean standards.... They aren't thrown into question as much in the US, since there aren't two active, opposing worldviews battling it out... we just kinda assume that a doctor or judge should be treated more respectfully than a garbage-collection or wait-person (not me, of course -- I am always nice, until the time comes to not be nice, and I will know when it is time to not be nice, because Dalton will tell me). |
actually, I never set rigid codes of status and behavior for anyone, whether by Korean or Western standards.
it all depends on the circumstances.
There could easily be a circumstance where a garbage worker can tell a doctor or lawyer to go [Mod Edit] himself/herself and be perfectly justified in doing so.
I believe there exists a certain accepted code of civilized/correct behavior towards other adults in our society, regardless of their status, profession or age.
a doctor has no license to be an [Mod Edit] by virtue of his/her profession to anyone else, just like an older person has no license to be an a-hole to anyone else by virtue of their age. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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No one has the right to be an [Mod Edit], but when people are, Westerners may see it as more "right" to tell them so, while other cultures may see the outburst as wrong -- perhaps even more wrong than the original [Mod Edit] behavior that got the telling-off started... in fact, I think I have a link to a concise visual reference....
http://blog.mrhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/oh-snap-chart.jpg
If your main point is that people should just be nicer to each other, then I am with you on that one! |
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