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"Saving Face" - The number 1 source of conflict?
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withnail



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:13 am    Post subject: "Saving Face" - The number 1 source of conflict? Reply with quote

In your opinion, which aspect of cultural difference between Westerners and Koreans is the biggest source of conflict?

I'm gonna go for "Saving Face"

We all make mistakes. Some of these mistakes can cause a whole boatload of trouble for others. When this happens it seems only natural to apologise sincerely and offer to do whatever you can to make the situation right.

When someone apologises, it goes a long way to pouring healing oil on the situation and restoring harmony. However to react in the opposite way makes things 100 times worse!

Here I mean acting like nothing's wrong, not apologising, not trying to make recompense and when called on it, refusing to accept responsibility and even lying!

The more the "victim" goes over it in their mind, the angrier they get! After a while, a sensitive soul, stunned by the lack of decency, may even begin to doubt themselves and feel guilty about being annoyed. After all the "perpetrator" is clearly Kool-and-the-Gang and has no problem. You are the one with the problem! This to me is an even bigger irritation - feeling bad about feeling bad! Meanwhile the other person glibly sails on as if nothing happened, genuinely confused that you are upset!

Here are two examples:

Situation 1: My first uni job. One day I had to call in ill. I had to call the female academic coordinator. She's cool and says that she'll inform the classes concerned.

She made my schedule so she knows that there 6 classes that day and all in different classrooms. (Having all your classes in the same classroom was a privilege reserved for teachers of some seniority and I was a noob).

Indeed I'd recently asked her about this and been told that new teachers have to travel around different rooms until they'd worked there a few years. No problem.

Next day when I return, I discover she'd written a note on the whiteboard of the classroom for the first class only. Throughout the rest of the day, the other classes had duly turned up, sat for up to 20 minutes in confusion before either going home or going to her to ask why the teacher wasn't there. Needless to say some students were not happy about it.

When I realised this, I emailed the AC to point it out, rather than complain. I made clear in the email that its only purpose was to give her a heads up, just in case people were asking/complaining.

In her reply, she lied. Just like that!

She said that in the phone call of the previous morning, we had in fact talked about the issue of how many classrooms needed a notice and that I'd agreed it was only one!

Now there are lies and there are lies! One kind of lie is when someone claims something took place (which did not) a long time ago, when peoples' memories have faded and doubt has entered about what took place.

However to lie about a phone call that took place the previous morning and which lasted all of 2 minutes is another thing altogether - a lie in which her version of events contradicted the protocols she herself had established (noobs getting their own classroom). She was prepared to launch a horrendous insult to my intelligence in order to save face!

Situation 2: My own Korean buddies refused to hear of me taking a KTX down to Busan before flying home for the Summer vacation. They offer to take me down in their car. Great!

My flight's at 10.50am, the journey's 80 minutes tops and they tell me to be outside my apartment at 800am packed and ready to go, as I duly am. This would get me there around 920am. Sweet!

No show! They overslept!

After some frantic calls from me, they finally show up at 900am. We arrive at Busan airport at 1020am and I'm not allowed on the flight!

I have to fork out another 400,000 won for another flight and have to make my own way up to Seoul. (The flight was Busan-Seoul-Germany-London).

I can't help being pissed off as I'm handing over the extra money, but not once do my Korean friends apologise and as I'm leaving to get to Seoul another way, I make a playful but pointed comment about waking up on time!

They are genuinely puzzled and surprised that I seem a little put out! Apparently I should have told them arrive at my place even earlier! By agreeing to be picked up at 800am I had apparently not allowed enough time for mishaps (like them oversleeping!)

I have learned my lesson! I will try not to get mad! But from now on I know this - I will do my best never again to allow others to do for me what I cannot do myself and I will try to make a risk assessment at all times.

This is gonna involve a lot of extra hassle but after the dust settled on both situations outlined above - I discovered that to the Korean mindset, I was at fault in both situations.

I made the mistake of not controlling the variables and trusting them when I actually needed to micromanage them!

It took me a long time to learn this, but if it helps someone to avoid conflict in the future I offer you this advice: where possible do everything yourself and risk-assess everything where negligence would leave you in a hole!

I think this is good advice in any context but because of "Saving Face" it's critically important in Korea!

Can you beat "Saving Face" as the no.1 cause of conflict between Westerners and Koreans?


Last edited by withnail on Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kimchi Cha Cha



Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had numerous somewhat similar experiences over the past seven years to the point that, unfortunately, I am quite guarded about many situations with locals as from past experience I've realised that often at any point where a miscommunication, blooper, accident or problem occurs it will either end up with the blulk of the blame being unfairly attached to me,or the other party not only not apologizing but not seeming to even consider the remote possibility of even doing so.

Unfortunately, a lot of locals - even friends - view us differently, ie. lower, than they do other colleagues or friends. As such, if a problem occurs a lot of people will have no problem in shifting, reappropriating or denying blame. It sucks but unfortunately it happens and I've often come to expect nothing less these days.

You have a right to be upset or angry when people let you down. If they do so and don't make amends for it, keep them at arm's length as they will do exactly the same next time.
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stevieg4ever



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would vote racism myself, but hey that is just me.
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Stalin84



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Haebangchon, Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My strategy to get around situations like you mentioned in #1 is to involve more people than just the two parties. That way you put them in the awkward position of being exposed if they mix something up. Which would cause them to lose face.

I guess the moral of the story is, always pass on important responsibilities to Koreans in such a way that screwing up will require them to lose face. I call it, motivation...
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indirect, passive-aggressive communication. That and the "groupy-clingy" mentality.

"I am doing X" = "You should do Y"

Can I eat lunch by myself today without it being a source of drama?

No, I don't want to play volleyball or soccer.

Stop telling me to use GOM player, I prefer VLC. And Internet Exploder is the cause of your viruses, not Youtube.

Because I'm not hanging out with you tonight, does not mean that I never want to hang out with you again ever.

It's okay go and talk in Korean, I'm okay listening to you. I can be in the background and be happy.
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redaxe



Joined: 01 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what causes the most conflict is Koreans' lack of ability to tell a person something that he or she does not want to hear. It's why they constantly break contracts, cancel appointments, and change things at the last minute. They prefer to break a promise and disappoint you later rather than suffer the discomfort and embarrassment of telling you something unpleasant now.
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no face for an underling, nothing approaching a basic expectation of decency. You are a non person, a cog in a wheel, expendable, a human component to be used up and cast out at will to serve the interest of the group, a group that is represented in every tangible sense by a lecherous, grasping, corrupt old man. Understand THAT.
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Pinished



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: "Saving Face" - The number 1 source of conflic Reply with quote

withnail wrote:

Situation 2: My own Korean buddies refused to hear of me taking a KTX down to Busan before flying home for the Summer vacation. They offer to take me down in their car. Great!

No show! They overslept!

I have to fork out another 400,000 won for another flight and have to make my own way up to Seoul.


"Korean buddies," ha, ha, ha!!! I hoped you learned something.
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Wishmaster



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saving face= acceptable lying
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balzor



Joined: 14 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: "Saving Face" - The number 1 source of conflic Reply with quote

withnail wrote:
In your opinion, which aspect of cultural difference between Westerners and Koreans is the biggest source of conflict?

I'm gonna go for "Saving Face"

We all make mistakes. Some of these mistakes can cause a whole boatload of trouble for others. When this happens it seems only natural to apologise sincerely and offer to do whatever you can to make the situation right.

When someone apologises, it goes a long way to pouring healing oil on the situation and restoring harmony. However to react in the opposite way makes things 100 times worse!

Here I mean acting like nothing's wrong, not apologising, not trying to make recompense and when called on it, refusing to accept responsibility and even lying!

The more the "victim" goes over it in their mind, the angrier they get! After a while, a sensitive soul, stunned by the lack of decency, may even begin to doubt themselves and feel guilty about being annoyed. After all the "perpetrator" is clearly Kool-and-the-Gang and has no problem. You are the one with the problem! This to me is an even bigger irritation - feeling bad about feeling bad! Meanwhile the other person glibly sails on as if nothing happened, genuinely confused that you are upset!

Here are two examples:

Situation 1: My first uni job. One day I had to call in ill. I had to call the female academic coordinator. She's cool and says that she'll inform the classes concerned.

She made my schedule so she knows that there 6 classes that day and all in different classrooms. (Having all your classes in the same classroom was a privilege reserved for teachers of some seniority and I was a noob).

Indeed I'd recently asked her about this and been told that new teachers have to travel around different rooms until they'd worked there a few years. No problem.

Next day when I return, I discover she'd written a note on the whiteboard of the classroom for the first class only. Throughout the rest of the day, the other classes had duly turned up, sat for up to 20 minutes in confusion before either going home or going to her to ask why the teacher wasn't there. Needless to say some students were not happy about it.

When I realised this, I emailed the AC to point it out, rather than complain. I made clear in the email that its only purpose was to give her a heads up, just in case people were asking/complaining.

In her reply, she lied. Just like that!

She said that in the phone call of the previous morning, we had in fact talked about the issue of how many classrooms needed a notice and that I'd agreed it was only one!

Now there are lies and there are lies! One kind of lie is when someone claims something took place (which did not) a long time ago, when peoples' memories have faded and doubt has entered about what took place.

However to lie about a phone call that took place the previous morning and which lasted all of 2 minutes is another thing altogether - a lie in which her version of events contradicted the protocols she herself had established (noobs getting their own classroom). She was prepared to launch a horrendous insult to my intelligence in order to save face!

Situation 2: My own Korean buddies refused to hear of me taking a KTX down to Busan before flying home for the Summer vacation. They offer to take me down in their car. Great!

My flight's at 10.50am, the journey's 80 minutes tops and they tell me to be outside my apartment at 800am packed and ready to go, as I duly am. This would get me there around 920am. Sweet!

No show! They overslept!

After some frantic calls from me, they finally show up at 900am. We arrive at Busan airport at 1020am and I'm not allowed on the flight!

I have to fork out another 400,000 won for another flight and have to make my own way up to Seoul. (The flight was Busan-Seoul-Germany-London).

I can't help being pissed off as I'm handing over the extra money, but not once do my Korean friends apologise and as I'm leaving to get to Seoul another way, I make a playful but pointed comment about waking up on time!

They are genuinely puzzled and surprised that I seem a little put out! Apparently I should have told them arrive at my place even earlier! By agreeing to be picked up at 800am I had apparently not allowed enough time for mishaps (like them oversleeping!)

I have learned my lesson! I will try not to get mad! But from now on I know this - I will do my best never again to allow others to do for me what I cannot do myself and I will try to make a risk assessment at all times.

This is gonna involve a lot of extra hassle but after the dust settled on both situations outlined above - I discovered that to the Korean mindset, I was at fault in both situations.

I made the mistake of not controlling the variables and trusting them when I actually needed to micromanage them!

It took me a long time to learn this, but if it helps someone to avoid conflict in the future I offer you this advice: where possible do everything yourself and risk-assess everything where negligence would leave you in a hole!

I think this is good advice in any context but because of "Saving Face" it's critically important in Korea!

Can you beat "Saving Face" as the no.1 cause of conflict between Westerners and Koreans?
These sound like normal situations that people deal often, but some can't handle. You seem like you have figured out the answer. The key to any problem is how you deal with it. Will you get angry knowing what anger won't solve the problem? Will you complain and make others just as miserable as you? Patience is the most important piece of any solution. You need to tell yourself that getting mad or even is not going to solve the problem and might only exacerbate things more. Living in Korea we all know that Murphy's Law is in full overdrive effect and that things often can and will go wrong, but the difference between people who can handle it and those that hate everything and quit, cry and complain and want to go home, is whether or not you can calmly deal with situations and work out problems with a positive outlook on the solution. IMHO
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BoholDiver



Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say the OP's #2 example was not saving face. Just someone who is unreliable.

I would say the #1 source of contention is the constant bumping on the streets and sidewalks. It demoralizes people and changes a lot of people's personalities for the worse.

Accidents happen, but many cases are not accidents. The other person chooses not to move, or expects the other person to move and seems shocked when he/she gets bumped hard. Also, it plays into Confuscianism where older ajosshis and ajummas won't move for a younger person, let alone a westerner.
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redaxe



Joined: 01 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoholDiver wrote:
I would say the OP's #2 example was not saving face. Just someone who is unreliable.

I would say the #1 source of contention is the constant bumping on the streets and sidewalks. It demoralizes people and changes a lot of people's personalities for the worse.

Accidents happen, but many cases are not accidents. The other person chooses not to move, or expects the other person to move and seems shocked when he/she gets bumped hard. Also, it plays into Confuscianism where older ajosshis and ajummas won't move for a younger person, let alone a westerner.


I don't get people who always complain about Koreans bumping into them in public. Are you people from the countryside or what? Have you never been to a crowded place or taken public transportation before Korea? It's just what happens, people bump into each other. What is so demoralizing about a 60 year-old woman bumping into you trying to get off the subway car?
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BoholDiver



Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I have been bumped before. But the frequency of it happening, as well as the intention. No apologies either.

It doesn't bother me much anymore, but if I have had a bad day and I'm going home, it just fans the flames.

redaxe wrote:
BoholDiver wrote:
I would say the OP's #2 example was not saving face. Just someone who is unreliable.

I would say the #1 source of contention is the constant bumping on the streets and sidewalks. It demoralizes people and changes a lot of people's personalities for the worse.

Accidents happen, but many cases are not accidents. The other person chooses not to move, or expects the other person to move and seems shocked when he/she gets bumped hard. Also, it plays into Confuscianism where older ajosshis and ajummas won't move for a younger person, let alone a westerner.


I don't get people who always complain about Koreans bumping into them in public. Are you people from the countryside or what? Have you never been to a crowded place or taken public transportation before Korea? It's just what happens, people bump into each other. What is so demoralizing about a 60 year-old woman bumping into you trying to get off the subway car?
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stupified



Joined: 10 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoever up there said "control the variables" is right. Especially when going to an airport. I was almost late to my last flight because my foreignor pal wanted to tag along. It was an early flight, he woke up a bit late. The check-in line was longer than I expected, I was groggy.

I always try to hit airports early and by myself. Lot's o' variables at an airport, my friend.
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Bloopity Bloop



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Location: Seoul yo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redaxe wrote:
I think what causes the most conflict is Koreans' lack of ability to tell a person something that he or she does not want to hear. It's why they constantly break contracts, cancel appointments, and change things at the last minute. They prefer to break a promise and disappoint you later rather than suffer the discomfort and embarrassment of telling you something unpleasant now.


Doesn't this stem from saving face?

In any case, my main co-teacher pulls this kind of s*** as much as she breathes. She told me that 6th grade classes would be OVER, all the kids knew this and were jumping for joy (because they hate my main co-teacher). The next week, I get an angry e-mail from her because I hadn't sent her my lesson plans for 6th grade. I called her on her BS, and just like the OP's first example, she lies straight to my face and says we'd simply finished the 6th grade curriculum and that we still had to teach. Obviously, I was pissed, the students were pissed, the homeroom teachers confused, and my co-teacher was COMPLETELY aloof and didn't understand why all 3 6th grade classes were horrible.

But no one likes her at my school so there's my semi-sweet revenge!
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