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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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 Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
Mr Pink your example is also subjective. As a noob I was darn near perfect. The biggest complaint I got was that my class was usually in disarray. I fell into a natural rythym with my students and the school, and since we had just opened the schol, I was the first teacher so the school had PLANS arranged for me from the academic director.
Having these plans went a long way in my confdence in front of the class and the students benefitted.
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First of all, no teacher is perfect. EVER. If they were perfect then improving in the craft wouldn't be necessary. Teaching is an art and a science. The art part is always something that can be improved upon.
Again, are we not talking of public school jobs? I am of the opinion that noobs should have to work in hawgwons first. Someone has to start at the bottom and shouldn't it be people with zero experience? You are free to disagree with me on this point. I am sure many out there do.
Sure, there are veteran teachers who suck. I've hired many of them over the years. However, leaving lesson plans and work sheets are generally not going to help those who naturally suck. Teaching isn't a profession for everyone. The funny thing is so many think it is. The sad part is when people who have no talent decide to go back and get certified, when they really shouldn't be teaching. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| I too think we should ONLY Hire experienced teachers. Then after x years when all these experienced teachers are gone we can have ZERO people who have learned how to teach in the meantime and there will be ZERO people who can take the job. |
Noobs can learn the ropes at boot camp ie do a TEFL course.or perhaps volunteer as a teachers assistant before they come.
Personally I studied EFL and did some voluntary unpaid teaching in a 3rd world toilet before I came here. |
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frankly speaking
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: |
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"3rd world toilet before I came here."
I like working in Canada.
Seuolio, you are coming off as a little arrogant. As stated by Pink, no one is perfect as a teacher or even near perfect. The best that we can ever hope for is not to interfere with the students learning. They don't learn because of us, they learn in spite of us. Our lessons and exercises should be implemented so that we are not the focus and the material is. I like to think that we are more like supportive roles rather than lecturers. Show the students the tools, how to use them, and let them build their own future.
I agree with Mr. Pink a lot except that I don't think that Hagwon jobs are bottom barrel. I actually think that Public School jobs are the bottom.
I have had the best experiences at Hagwons. With the right institution there is a lot more that you can do with your students and they can make a lot more progress than in the public school situation. I know good Hagwons are rare, but they are out there.
Public school on the other hand is a no win situation. 30-50 kids in a class, 2-3 contact hours a week, curriculum that still doesn't understand the importance of student centered learning utilizing whole language learning with some emphasis on the communicative approach. I would be willing to teach twice as many hours, just so that the students got more exposure.
I loathe public school jobs. The only good thing is that you don't have so many classroom hours.
I came across rather harsh about the OP, I will say this. I do think that 1 month of lessons is good enough. If the OP knows how to create a good lesson plan, the format alone will help the new teacher realize what needs or can be done. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
"3rd world toilet before I came here."
I like working in Canada.
Seuolio, you are coming off as a little arrogant. As stated by Pink, no one is perfect as a teacher or even near perfect. The best that we can ever hope for is not to interfere with the students learning. They don't learn because of us, they learn in spite of us. Our lessons and exercises should be implemented so that we are not the focus and the material is. I like to think that we are more like supportive roles rather than lecturers. Show the students the tools, how to use them, and let them build their own future.
I agree with Mr. Pink a lot except that I don't think that Hagwon jobs are bottom barrel. I actually think that Public School jobs are the bottom.
I have had the best experiences at Hagwons. With the right institution there is a lot more that you can do with your students and they can make a lot more progress than in the public school situation. I know good Hagwons are rare, but they are out there.
Public school on the other hand is a no win situation. 30-50 kids in a class, 2-3 contact hours a week, curriculum that still doesn't understand the importance of student centered learning utilizing whole language learning with some emphasis on the communicative approach. I would be willing to teach twice as many hours, just so that the students got more exposure.
I loathe public school jobs. The only good thing is that you don't have so many classroom hours.
I came across rather harsh about the OP, I will say this. I do think that 1 month of lessons is good enough. If the OP knows how to create a good lesson plan, the format alone will help the new teacher realize what needs or can be done. |
I come off as arrogant, don't care. I said that AS A NOOB I was darn near perfect, as in there were very few issues I came across that most noobs struggle with. BUt of course I am a trained teacher, and have a natural love of children many do not have.
You call it arrogance, it call it reality. I am not going to say that I was not good when I was. Not everyone will be like me and have very few problems when they start out. I did not mean to suggest that I was perfect. I am still not perfect now, but I am also one of the most praised teachers in SMOE so I must be doing something right.
As for the "learn in spite of us comment" its that kind of cynicism in many teachers that holds them back from going all out, and I can guarantee you that this is not the case for all students. Many of my present students have learned because of me, not in spite of me.
As for your resentment towards public schools, I do not totally disagree, the curriculum and the hours make it a challenge to learn. However North American schools suffer the same issues, its not exactly a Korean problem. I learned French for 2 classes a week all the way up to Grade 9, would not say I actually learned the language.
I wil continue to be arrogant I guess. My record and my experience speaks loud and clear be it in a hagwon or in the PS school system My classes have always been well managed, my kids have always loved me, and their test scores and grasp of the language have improved from the day I walked in the door. Although it's a bit harder to register the change in all of the students in a P.S |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
I wil continue to be arrogant I guess. My record and my experience speaks loud and clear be it in a hagwon or in the PS school system My classes have always been well managed, my kids have always loved me, and their test scores and grasp of the language have improved from the day I walked in the door. Although it's a bit harder to register the change in all of the students in a P.S |
Well I have the same natural love of children and have also been succesful. I know other teachers that love teaching and have also done very well.
Such people tend to have invested in an EFL training course as well which perhaps hints at their motivation-they're in it for the enjoyment of teaching as much if not more so than for the money.
However i don't know anyone who is actually a standard qualified teacher. You must be a rare case because I think most of them stay in their home countries where they stand to build careers with benefits and greater financial reward. UK for example is now offering some financially outstanding rewards for schoolteachers.
I'm wondering why you decided on Korea when presumably your credentials would benefit you far more back home? |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| frankly speaking wrote: |
"3rd world toilet before I came here."
I like working in Canada.
Seuolio, you are coming off as a little arrogant. As stated by Pink, no one is perfect as a teacher or even near perfect. The best that we can ever hope for is not to interfere with the students learning. They don't learn because of us, they learn in spite of us. Our lessons and exercises should be implemented so that we are not the focus and the material is. I like to think that we are more like supportive roles rather than lecturers. Show the students the tools, how to use them, and let them build their own future.
I agree with Mr. Pink a lot except that I don't think that Hagwon jobs are bottom barrel. I actually think that Public School jobs are the bottom.
I have had the best experiences at Hagwons. With the right institution there is a lot more that you can do with your students and they can make a lot more progress than in the public school situation. I know good Hagwons are rare, but they are out there.
Public school on the other hand is a no win situation. 30-50 kids in a class, 2-3 contact hours a week, curriculum that still doesn't understand the importance of student centered learning utilizing whole language learning with some emphasis on the communicative approach. I would be willing to teach twice as many hours, just so that the students got more exposure.
I loathe public school jobs. The only good thing is that you don't have so many classroom hours.
I came across rather harsh about the OP, I will say this. I do think that 1 month of lessons is good enough. If the OP knows how to create a good lesson plan, the format alone will help the new teacher realize what needs or can be done. |
I come off as arrogant, don't care. I said that AS A NOOB I was darn near perfect, as in there were very few issues I came across that most noobs struggle with. BUt of course I am a trained teacher, and have a natural love of children many do not have.
You call it arrogance, it call it reality. I am not going to say that I was not good when I was. Not everyone will be like me and have very few problems when they start out. I did not mean to suggest that I was perfect. I am still not perfect now, but I am also one of the most praised teachers in SMOE so I must be doing something right.
As for the "learn in spite of us comment" its that kind of cynicism in many teachers that holds them back from going all out, and I can guarantee you that this is not the case for all students. Many of my present students have learned because of me, not in spite of me.
As for your resentment towards public schools, I do not totally disagree, the curriculum and the hours make it a challenge to learn. However North American schools suffer the same issues, its not exactly a Korean problem. I learned French for 2 classes a week all the way up to Grade 9, would not say I actually learned the language.
I wil continue to be arrogant I guess. My record and my experience speaks loud and clear be it in a hagwon or in the PS school system My classes have always been well managed, my kids have always loved me, and their test scores and grasp of the language have improved from the day I walked in the door. Although it's a bit harder to register the change in all of the students in a P.S |
Not to nit pick with you too much, but if you went through a teacher training course, that would have been when you were a noob. When you first walked into a classroom in Korea it was not your first time. Also, you learned about the craft of teaching while in a teacher training program, so that puts you at an advantage over 99% of those stepping into a classroom for the first time.
No one is questioning your record, or did I miss that? It really isn't hard to have a good record if you are capable at your job in this country. Compared to your home country, it is cake teaching here.
The point was though, most noobs, real noobs, don't really know what they are looking at when they look at the typical lesson plan, so that doesn't really help them.
I should have added in my previous post, I am 100% in favor of having new teachers watch experienced teachers teach and then have a discussion with the new teacher after so they can realize what teaching techniques are and which ones are best utilized in ESL. At my last school I had all new hires watch me and the other experienced teachers teach before they were allowed into a class. This included so called "Korea veterans" as I've seen enough of these veterans to know a lot of them don't know wtf they are doing when it comes to teaching. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I cant understand why you wouldn't leave your lesson plans
I had food in my fridge and Soju (yuk) left for me
Plus a short written bio of all my classes and the students
I did the same for the young female teacher that took over my job
I provided a written precis of all 20 classes and the student's personalities
As other previous posters said its not the LP that makes the classes its the teacher..... From the info the OP has given I can say that I wouldn't want them as my teacher.
Seems a tad selfish, self-important and anal to me 
Teachings not rocket science but if your not an empathetic/caring person then you're gonna suck as a teacher. Of course you have to be enthusiastic, funny, diligent and professonal as well.... |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
I wil continue to be arrogant I guess. My record and my experience speaks loud and clear be it in a hagwon or in the PS school system My classes have always been well managed, my kids have always loved me, and their test scores and grasp of the language have improved from the day I walked in the door. Although it's a bit harder to register the change in all of the students in a P.S |
Well I have the same natural love of children and have also been succesful. I know other teachers that love teaching and have also done very well.
Such people tend to have invested in an EFL training course as well which perhaps hints at their motivation-they're in it for the enjoyment of teaching as much if not more so than for the money.
However i don't know anyone who is actually a standard qualified teacher. You must be a rare case because I think most of them stay in their home countries where they stand to build careers with benefits and greater financial reward. UK for example is now offering some financially outstanding rewards for schoolteachers.
I'm wondering why you decided on Korea when presumably your credentials would benefit you far more back home? |
The answer to that question is simple, back home in Canada I am not all that employable. I have no special skills, so I ama dime a dozen. There are thousands of applicants for hundred of jobs in my hometown. I lived there all my life and couldnt even get the school board to send me out on interviews despite glowing reccomendations and a decent resume.
My wife is Korean, and I can save some money here for a down payment. When I go back I can suck up substituting for a few years while I wait for a contract if I need to. I am tired of being forced to move around every year, and be forced to work on aboriginal reserves 8 hours from my hometown just to get employed. At least here I have great work hours, no extra work, a huge amount of respect, and I am close to my inlaws |
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frankly speaking
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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There are people I find credible. Mr Pink, even though I don't always agree with everything (99% of the time he is right on the money), I respect him even if I disagree, because he clearly knows what he is talking about.
Seoulio on the other hand reeks of BS, and I don't mean the degree. Self deluded to think that he is one of the most praised teachers in all of SMOE. Perhaps at his school, but how do you quantify something like that? |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
There are people I find credible. Mr Pink, even though I don't always agree with everything (99% of the time he is right on the money), I respect him even if I disagree, because he clearly knows what he is talking about.
Seoulio on the other hand reeks of BS, and I don't mean the degree. Self deluded to think that he is one of the most praised teachers in all of SMOE. Perhaps at his school, but how do you quantify something like that? |
LOL, okay Frankly. I know what I am, I know I am not full on BS and I am not here to impress anyone. I can quantify it very easilly. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
There are people I find credible. Mr Pink, even though I don't always agree with everything (99% of the time he is right on the money), I respect him even if I disagree, because he clearly knows what he is talking about.
Seoulio on the other hand reeks of BS, and I don't mean the degree. Self deluded to think that he is one of the most praised teachers in all of SMOE. Perhaps at his school, but how do you quantify something like that? |
If you believe me, I would put my money down that Seoulio is liked and loved at his school(s). As for most praised in SMOE, that might be going a bit too far, but with the way they do open classes, I can't put that notion down. In an open class, a trained teacher can impress the big wigs no problem.
Why?
Anyone who comes to Korea and actually loves teaching is going to shine. I was talking with my wife about all the teachers I've worked with over the years and I can only count on one hand the amount I thought were good teachers. The #1 reason these people were good teachers in my books was because they cared. When you care, you work hard at trying to be a good teacher, and that work pays off. This isn't always the case of course, but it has been in the majority of cases. I think back to my teaching experiences, and I think even though I probably wasn't the greatest when it came to delivery of information, but I cared for the students and was there when they needed me. That impacts a student far more than being able to get them to remember and learn 100% of every lesson.
Most people come to Korea looking for a year or two of "something". They don't really care about their students, as they see teaching as something temporary or as secondary in importance in their life.
This used to drive me nuts. As I said, I've hired veteran teachers that were complete tools. I've said it before on this forum, I couldn't really be bothered if they couldn't teach well. That can be learned. I was really bothered that they didn't care about their job or their students. Those types of people shouldn't be in teaching.
Seoulio: I also get why you aren't teaching back in Canada. I found the same thing, no jobs, or long lists of supply teachers. I'll probably do the same, go back when I got enough to buy a house and just supply to pay the bills until I get offered a contract. I say probably because on the flip side, teaching in a public school doesn't really interest me, so unless a private school is willing to take a chance on me, I don't know... |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Pink.
It appears I have misjudged you, so for that I aplogise. I personally do not fully understand why you would not ahre your lesson plans, but as you have explained it I guess I can understand that you have those reasons you mentioned even if I do not agree.
As for the rest you are pretty much dead on as well. I can count a few more teachers than you can, many of the ones that I have worked with have cared, I have been lucky to be co workers with them, and to learned from them, just as they have learned from me.
Am I the most praised teacher at SMOE, of course not, I said what I said to make a point. Of course I can't say " Yeah I get more praise then X number of teachers" But I am widely known SMOE wide for a number of reasons, and have been singled out on a number of occasions as an example of quality teaching and as a teacher who cares for his students.
I constantly put in extra hours after school ( because I myself am a perfectionist with a hint of OCD) and I do a lot of things I don't have to for my students, and for my school.
Bottom line is I know what SMOE heads have said about me and to me. I know the reviews I have gotten, and I know all about the public speaking engagements I am constantly asked to do, and have done. I know how I am constantly sought after to do afterschool prpgrams at various schools. And, while the money that comes along with this prestige is nice, and it is certainly a goal, the students come first, always have, always will, or esle, really, what's the point.
It is for this reason that I believe, and always will, that leaving behind your lessons is no skin off your nose, is good karma, good for the profession, good for the students, good for professional growth, and good all round. I will always think that not leavig them out of spite or some misguided sense that they are these magically original and top secret plans and can not be shared. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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This is a bit like asking, "Would you share your pencil or eraser?".
Of course, I would share my pencil, but any person's personal collection of lessons will not be as complete as what we can find online and share as a community. In fact, the new teacher may get the wrong impression about which classes they teach if they only work off the old teacher's material.
In Japan, the first school I worked at was terrible. I was ready to call it quits and find something else to do. I got an offer to work at another school and worked there for 3.5 years. Those lessons were much more favorable to work from because they were supplied by a teacher.
I know that sounds like an argument for sharing lessons, but the way it was shared was within the community of franchise owners. Even though one teacher built the curriculum, all teachers contributed in giving feedback.
I have notes I have taken, I post them online, but in no way do they make up one full lesson. That is for each teacher to decide and put together how they want. I just supply SOME of the parts they can use. They may want to combine one idea I have with another teacher's. In this case a well written lesson plan explaining what I would do would be useless for this teacher. |
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jpotter78
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| xCustomx wrote: |
| skim234 wrote: |
The OP sounds like a miserable person. Were you planning on selling them or something? As a believer in karma, you are asking for some crappy karma by purposely not helping someone who probably needs help.
I'm not sure of the motivation behind your logic. |
No I wasn't planning on selling them. But why should I just give 3 years of work away? I actually use quite a few sites where I can download other lesson plans, but only if I upload material that I've made. I also work together with some of the other public school teachers in my area to share lesson plans. I just don't understand why I should fork over everything. |
I would actually like to hear a reason for not "forking it over". Do you have one? All I have read is, "its 3 years of work". So what? You are not losing the work. You are not competing with this new teacher. This new teacher is not gaining something from this material that you do not already possess (info, knowledge, money, etc.). I am not trying to be mean (like some of the other people in here  ). Seriously, I want to hear your rationale of why you wouldn't just leave everything. |
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