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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: Divorced Couple Clashes Over Right to Indoctrinate Child |
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Incredibly disgusting article here.
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Joseph Reyes, who baptized his 3-year-old daughter without his ex-wife's permission, could see jail time after a Cook County judge granted his ex a temporary restraining order barring him from exposing the child to any religion other than Judaism.
With an already ugly divorce and custody battle turning even uglier, Reyes was arraigned Tuesday on charges he violated the temporary restraining order when he invited television crews along as he took his daughter Ela to Holy Name Cathedral on Jan. 17, the Chicago Sun-Times reports.
At issue is a disputed agreement that the one-time couple would raise the girl in the Jewish faith, attorneys in the case say. While Joseph Reyes said he converted to Judaism after his daughter was born, he insists they never agreed to raise the girl in the Jewish faith, that they never kept a kosher home, rarely observed the Sabbath and only went to services a few times together with the child.
After the couple divorced, Reyes told "Good Morning America" he went back to his Catholic faith, and wanted to share that faith with his daughter.
"This is, in her mind, more about control," Reyes said of his ex. Lawyers for Rebecca Reyes said, however, that Joseph's insistence on taking Ela to church is malicious:
"Number one, it wasn't just a religious thing per se, it was the idea that he would suddenly, out of nowhere without any discussion ... have the girl baptized," Stephen Lake, Rebecca Reyes' attorney told GMA. "She looked at it as basically an assault on her little girl."
Meanwhile, Joseph Reyes and attorney Joel Brodsky appeared before Cook County Circuit Court Judge Edward Jordan--who initially granted the restraining order--and requested a new judge hear the case, the Sun-Times reports.
Jordan granted the request and the case was reassigned to Cook County Judge Elizabeth Loredo Rivera, in the divorce division. If Joseph Reyes is found in violation of the order, he could face as much as six months in jail and a $500 fine. |
A restraining order barring him from exposing the child to any religion other than Judaism? The fact that parental rights to abusively indoctrinate a child into religion are being protected by law via restraining orders against exposure to other faiths is disgusting beyond words. The idea that which religion a child will be brainwashed into believing is something that could be a legitimate part of a legal agreement is beyond insane. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| That's what he gets for converting to Judaism in the first place. Unfortunately, the little girl gets caught up in all of it. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Here's little Timmy. He's 5 and a classical liberal. Sally, the 4 year old over there disagrees with Timmy because she is an anarcho-syndicalist. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| That's what he gets for converting to Judaism in the first place. Unfortunately, the little girl gets caught up in all of it. |
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying he deserves his legal problems because he converted to Judaism? Are you being ironic? |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| That's what he gets for converting to Judaism in the first place. Unfortunately, the little girl gets caught up in all of it. |
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying he deserves his legal problems because he converted to Judaism? Are you being ironic? |
Oh, I would say the same thing if he converted to Catholicism. If they got married and he converted to Judaism as part of that marriage (which it seems like he did) it seems kind of funny that suddenly he no longer feels Jewish.
He has the right to change his mind but he opened himself up to major criticism by actively saying "I choose to be Jewish".
The father should not have to continue to educate the daughter in the Jewish faith. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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lol, they're so close to figuring out religion in general.
And I don't mean this to bash religious belief-- I'm just bothered by the notion that something as significant as one would think ideas of a creator or the supernatural would be should have a brand name and certified handlers.
| mises wrote: |
| Here's little Timmy. He's 5 and a classical liberal. Sally, the 4 year old over there disagrees with Timmy because she is an anarcho-syndicalist. |
Well, that went completely over my head. Wouldn't you sort of agree with a classical liberal in general and an anarcho-syndicalist in part regarding the cause of less government? I'm assuming Timmy and Sally are supposed to represent the couple in the news story, but really I have no idea what your joke was about. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| It makes as much sense to call a 4 year old a classical liberal as it does to call him a Catholic or Jew. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| It makes as much sense to call a 4 year old a classical liberal as it does to call him a Catholic or Jew. |
Gotcha. I guess I give children too much credit, 'cause that totally didn't seem ridiculous in my head. To be fair, I used to talk out loud to my dogs like they were fully competent adult humans too. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| It makes as much sense to call a 4 year old a classical liberal as it does to call him a Catholic or Jew. |
Gotcha. I guess I give children too much credit, 'cause that totally didn't seem ridiculous in my head. To be fair, I used to talk out loud to my dogs like they were fully competent adult humans too. |
Actually, calling a dog a Catholic makes as much sense as calling a toddler a Catholic.
Aren't we just a bonkers species? |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| It makes as much sense to call a 4 year old a classical liberal as it does to call him a Catholic or Jew. |
Gotcha. I guess I give children too much credit, 'cause that totally didn't seem ridiculous in my head. To be fair, I used to talk out loud to my dogs like they were fully competent adult humans too. |
Actually, calling a dog a Catholic makes as much sense as calling a toddler a Catholic.
Aren't we just a bonkers species? |
To make sense out of the question you're raising, I'd blame the improvisational nature of higher thought. Rather than consciousness being perfectly suited to what it does from the get-go, it probably got by doing primitive stuff at some point in ancient history only to get co-opted later for less necessary, more fanciful pursuits. Using black and white categorical labels to explain more slippery self-referential concepts would be a good example of how this improvised method of expanding thought doesn't always translate too well. It's as though religions are attempts at analogy that appear plausible yet don't add up in practice. Whether or not the transcendent ideas religions are focused on have any merit themselves, it's not much of a stretch to conclude that superficial labels and rules driven methods of understanding are the wrong tools for the job of finding meaning in existence. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I reckon we're just tribal. The athletic team from my general geographic region is better than the athletic team from your general geographic region.
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| Whether or not the transcendent ideas religions are focused on have any merit themselves, it's not much of a stretch to conclude that superficial labels and rules driven methods of understanding are the wrong tools for the job of finding meaning in existence. |
Though art was better when we were less secular. So, it wasn't a total wash. I'm tired of going to gallery after gallery and seeing post-modern crap passed off as art. I like stuff that looks like stuff, only better. The cultural elite seems to have decided that narcissism and indulgence is their meaning. You're probably right. We're searching for meaning and religion fills that void, though not sufficiently. Some guy said we all have a "god shaped hole in our hearts". Apparently, we now have a post-modern hole in our hearts? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Though art was better when we were less secular. |
Yeah, but I think that's incidental. All the inane crap that gets passed off as art now-a-days has more to do with artists trying to come up with something new than secularism I think. Artists themselves just stopped being impressed with high quality paintings that actually resembled things, and started trying to be artistic pioneers instead. If that's what they enjoy, I guess that's cool, but I really don't care for it.
Photography might have also had an impact; artists who want to capture something about reality in a realistic fashion seem to favor photography over painting. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| The athletic team from my general geographic region is better than the athletic team from your general geographic region. |
Needs to be on a t-shirt.
| mises wrote: |
| Though art was better when we were less secular. So, it wasn't a total wash. I'm tired of going to gallery after gallery and seeing post-modern crap passed off as art. I like stuff that looks like stuff, only better. The cultural elite seems to have decided that narcissism and indulgence is their meaning. You're probably right. We're searching for meaning and religion fills that void, though not sufficiently. Some guy said we all have a "god shaped hole in our hearts". Apparently, we now have a post-modern hole in our hearts? |
I guess following your line of thought with the post-modern/secular/bad art scene, you could describe it as an attempt to revel in the "hole," rather than to come up with a superior replacement for our last attempt at a patch. Secularized art might make the mistake of taking the flaws of one particular system and concluding that this is a license to throw together whatever garbage you feel like under the assumption that everything is equally flawed and meaningless. While good music for example doesn't subscribe to a clear cut robotic/mathematical formula for "goodness," this isn't the same thing as saying that all collections of sounds are equally "musical." |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: |
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The government needs to stay out of people's lives and problems - including this child. They just make things worse.
The answer:
The Judge should say: when the kid is with the father he can teach her whatever religion he wants and when the kid is with the mother she can do the same. It's none of the government's business and we will not choose for you nor will we intervene. Go home. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The government needs to stay out of people's lives and problems - including this child. They just make things worse.
The answer:
The Judge should say: when the kid is with the father he can teach her whatever religion he wants and when the kid is with the mother she can do the same. It's none of the government's business and we will not choose for you nor will we intervene. Go home. |
In this case, we are in total agreement. |
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