|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: School Choice |
 |
|
As educators, this topic should be one that we have some sort of opinion about. This was the "Stossel" show from last night, about this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQV3VCW-4OY
There are 6 parts.
Some of the issues raised in the show are common to our home countries, and also to Korea. Especially the strength and belligerence of the Teachers' union (a huge issue in my home country right now), and the popularity of private schools amongst families (Korea).
I got a relatively adequate education in the public school system up to middle school then went to semi(Catholic) private school for high school. So, my parents paid for my education twice. The first time through taxes, and again through school fees. Given the stats presented in the show (and other sources, of course) how does one defend the appalling value for money we get from public schools? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Our educational system could definitely use some work. Teacher's unions are definitely too powerful right now, and adding more choice to the school system probably wouldn't be a bad thing. However, I still think the biggest cause of the mediocre achievement of American students is cultural. Suggesting fixes for the school system is fine, but the biggest fix needs to take place in our nation's homes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Our educational system could definitely use some work. Teacher's unions are definitely too powerful right now, and adding more choice to the school system probably wouldn't be a bad thing. However, I still think the biggest cause of the mediocre achievement of American students is cultural. Suggesting fixes for the school system is fine, but the biggest fix needs to take place in our nation's homes. |
I disagree heartily with this. It's extremely reductionist to state that the problem is in the home, as if the home is one thing. All homes are different, but everyone (except for the homeless) has one, so to say that it needs to start there is kind of a tautology.
When posting this I knew one of the angles would be it is people's fault. After checking out the figures, I suspect most people would change there tune. Check out how much it costs per student in public schools. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Our educational system could definitely use some work. Teacher's unions are definitely too powerful right now, and adding more choice to the school system probably wouldn't be a bad thing. However, I still think the biggest cause of the mediocre achievement of American students is cultural. Suggesting fixes for the school system is fine, but the biggest fix needs to take place in our nation's homes. |
I disagree heartily with this. It's extremely reductionist to state that the problem is in the home, as if the home is one thing. All homes are different, but everyone (except for the homeless) has one, so to say that it needs to start there is kind of a tautology. |
Evidently I wasn't clear enough: parents are largely to blame for their children's failures. American parents, like American voters, do a terrible job. Not shocking, perhaps, given they're largely the same group.
| Senior wrote: |
| When posting this I knew one of the angles would be it is people's fault. After checking out the figures, I suspect most people would change there tune. Check out how much it costs per student in public schools. |
I'm not disagreeing that there are elements of our education system that could improve, including cost efficiency. I'm simply saying try to make this out to be a problem uniquely and only about our educational system is not just overly simplistic, it's wrong. American culture doesn't promote education anywhere near effectively enough. Children simply aren't driven to academic success as much as they should be. No amount of educational reform can fix that.
The affect of cultural values on education is easily seen in different immigrant populations. Pretending culture doesn't also impact non-immigrants education is just silly. It's time for American parents to start doing a better job. Your child fails math or science? Well unless he's clinically retarded, you bear a huge portion of the responsibility for that. Parental rights come with parental responsibilities, and many parents simply don't live up to them.
But yeah, let's just blame the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
[quote="Fox"]
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Our educational system could definitely use some work. Teacher's unions are definitely too powerful right now, and adding more choice to the school system probably wouldn't be a bad thing. However, I still think the biggest cause of the mediocre achievement of American students is cultural. Suggesting fixes for the school system is fine, but the biggest fix needs to take place in our nation's homes. |
I disagree heartily with this. It's extremely reductionist to state that the problem is in the home, as if the home is one thing. All homes are different, but everyone (except for the homeless) has one, so to say that it needs to start there is kind of a tautology. |
Evidently I wasn't clear enough: parents are largely to blame for their children's failures. American parents, like American voters, do a terrible job. Not shocking, perhaps, given they're largely the same group. |
Again, reductionist. I think the vast majority of parents and voters do the best they can with the information they are given. What led us to the situation where, supposedly, parents are failing so bad? It seems like far too simple and trite an explanation to me. Most of the parents I know want the best for their kids. I only ever met a few who were neglectful. Watch the video, and you will see at least one example of literally thousands of parents trying their best to improve the educational options for their kids. There may be examples where large groups of parents are wholly apathetic of their children's' educational outcomes. I've never seen it.
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| When posting this I knew one of the angles would be it is people's fault. After checking out the figures, I suspect most people would change there tune. Check out how much it costs per student in public schools. |
I'm not disagreeing that there are elements of our education system that could improve, including cost efficiency. I'm simply saying try to make this out to be a problem uniquely and only about our educational system is not just overly simplistic, it's wrong. American culture doesn't promote education anywhere near effectively enough. Children simply aren't driven to academic success as much as they should be. No amount of educational reform can fix that. |
I don't see it. Why is there so much pressure to get a college degree? Hell, you need one to work at Wal-Mart or McDs, just about. Every person knows the importance of education. Ask any person on the street whether they think education is important, and obviously, they will say "Yes".
| Quote: |
| The affect of cultural values on education is easily seen in different immigrant populations. Pretending culture doesn't also impact non-immigrants education is just silly. It's time for American parents to start doing a better job. |
I agree, immigrants do value education very highly. This could be because the opportunities didn't exist for those families, in their home country. In any case, the point is moot, as the idea that Americans don't value education, doesn't really bear out with reality. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So Libertarian Senior dismisses any personal responsibility regarding education and places all the blame on the government. Children are lazy and learn less than they otherwise could purely and only because of governmental issues, and the fact that their often divorced parents who leave them to be raised by day care and television don't properly motivate them in no way impacts the situation. Further, American anti-intellectualism regarding issues like science and the resulting parental interference in proper science education in no way impacts the situation. I understand your case, thanks for clarifying it. I'm just glad my father didn't share your opinion and provided proper motivation for me, something many of American's young unfortunately lack. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| 1) So Libertarian Senior dismisses any personal responsibility regarding education and places all the blame on the government. 2) Children are lazy and learn less than they otherwise could purely and only because of governmental issues, and the fact that their often divorced parents who leave them to be raised by day care and television don't properly motivate them in no way impacts the situation. 3) Further, American anti-intellectualism regarding issues like science and the resulting parental interference in proper science education in no way impacts the situation. 4) I understand your case, thanks for clarifying it. I'm just glad my father didn't share your opinion and provided proper motivation for me, something many of American's young unfortunately lack. |
1) Strawman my friend. I know how much you hate those. I have no real opinion, either way, about what people do in their own home. It's my assertion that the people who dictate a monopoly must exist in education, whilst offering an inferior product are more to blame, than people who are doing what they have always been doing. People are the same all over and the same as they were since the dawn of time. Even if what you believe were the case, it would be tilting at windmills to expect people to change. Why not change the things we know we can fix? Trying to change human nature is a losing proposition.
2)This is your summation of the facts. I don't believe it matches up to reality though.
3)I'm not sure where you are coming from here. This is an issue in a few schools in a few states. It is far from the norm.
4)The strawman to rule them all. I am not saying parents shouldn't encourage their kids to achieve at school. In fact it is my contention that parents and the wider community do a very good job of this, and even gave an example of where maybe they go too far!(college)
Last edited by Senior on Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
1) The affect of cultural values on education is easily seen in different immigrant populations. Pretending culture doesn't also impact non-immigrants education is just silly. 2) It's time for American parents to start doing a better job. Your child fails math or science? Well unless he's clinically retarded, you bear a huge portion of the responsibility for that. 3) Parental rights come with parental responsibilities, and many parents simply don't live up to them.
|
1) I've never stated culture isn't a factor. I just don't see it as important a factor as the quality of education that kids are get at their govt mandated schools.
2) Perhaps the parents do share some of the blame. Unfortunately, parents don't teach kids maths or science, they pay teachers to do that for them. Kids had the same or worse grades 20 years ago, yet spending has increased exponentially. Are parents exponentially worse at their job, compared with 20 years ago?
3) Many, but not most. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Senior wrote: |
| I have no real opinion, either way, about what people do in their own home. |
This is a total cop out though. Saying, "I have no real opinion about what these people do at home," to avoid the fact that culture has a strong impact on educational success or failure while trying to construe it as a purely governmental problem is disingenuous. If you want to have a serious discussion about education, culture and home life must be taken into account.
| Senior wrote: |
| It's my assertion that the people who dictate a monopoly must exist in education ... |
No one dictates this, and a monopoly doesn't exist in education. It's certainly true that public education receives a huge competitive advantage via governmental subsidization, but private schools, religious schools, and home schools all exist. Clearly there's no monopoly. That's not to say government shouldn't do better; it should! But it's only part of the overall issue.
| Senior wrote: |
| ... whilst offering an inferior product are more to blame, than people who are doing what they have always been doing. |
American parents aren't doing what they've always been doing, though. That's my point.
| Senior wrote: |
| People are the same all over and the same as they were since the dawn of time. |
This sounds nice, but it's a total lie. Huge cultural differences exist between different groups of people. I would hope that none of us here are so lost to cultural relativism that they can't see that some cultural traits are good, and some are self-destructive.
| Senior wrote: |
| I am not saying parents shouldn't encourage their kids to achieve at school. In fact it is my contention that parents and the wider community do a very good job of this, and even gave an example of where maybe they go too far!(coolege) |
If parents were doing a good job of encouraging their children to pursue education, we wouldn't be seeing the results we're seeing. Schools are by no means perfect, but all the tools students require to get a fairly decent education are within them. Everything you need to do very well on any examination you care to list is taught in schools. I walked out of school capable and competent with regards to the subjects taught. Some other students didn't. We had the same school, so what was the differing factor? Parents.
Blame the government is an easy response, and it's not wrong per se; governmental criticism is good, and there's much to criticize. But the American people need a nice big helping of blaming themselves served alongside it if anything's ever to change. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
[quote="Fox"]
| Senior wrote: |
| I have no real opinion, either way, about what people do in their own home. |
This is a total cop out though. Saying, "I have no real opinion about what these people do at home," to avoid the fact that culture has a strong impact on educational success or failure while trying to construe it as a purely governmental problem is disingenuous. If you want to have a serious discussion about education, culture and home life must be taken into account. |
Of course culture has an impact on educational success. I've never really disputed this. Probably because culture has a strong impact on almost every social and political issue. We almost have to take it as a given, as there isn't all that much you can do, in the short term, about these issues.
Improving the school system would certainly go a long way to addressing these cultural/societal problems.
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| It's my assertion that the people who dictate a monopoly must exist in education ... |
No one dictates this, and a monopoly doesn't exist in education. It's certainly true that public education receives a huge competitive advantage via governmental subsidization, but private schools, religious schools, and home schools all exist. Clearly there's no monopoly. That's not to say government shouldn't do better; it should! But it's only part of the overall issue. |
If the market structure for education existed in a private context, it would be decried as a monopolistic abomination. "The big guy is forcing out the little guy." Have you looked at how much it costs to educate a student in the public system?
Also, these schools are closed to poor kids. School choice would open the doors of these schools to poor kids. A govt monopoly expressly prohibits this.
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| ... whilst offering an inferior product are more to blame, than people who are doing what they have always been doing. |
American parents aren't doing what they've always been doing, though. That's my point. |
I don't see it. Were rates of broken homes and neglectful parents any higher now, than in the past? I don't know.
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| People are the same all over and the same as they were since the dawn of time. |
This sounds nice, but it's a total lie. Huge cultural differences exist between different groups of people. I would hope that none of us here are so lost to cultural relativism that they can't see that some cultural traits are good, and some are self-destructive. |
Haha, I'm no cultural relativist, believe me. I believe that cultural stuff is bred out of ignorance and tradition. If you take a baby from a primitive tribe in the jungle and raise him in Manhattan or Brooklyn, won't he take on those cultural traits, or will he still follow the customs of his tribal ancestors? The answer is obvious, which is why we need better schools.
We can't hope to change those undesirable cultural traits of the tribal baby or the kids from the projects at home. We can't change the culture of the parents. That is done. We need to give the kids as good of an opportunity as they can get.
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| I am not saying parents shouldn't encourage their kids to achieve at school. In fact it is my contention that parents and the wider community do a very good job of this, and even gave an example of where maybe they go too far!(college) |
If parents were doing a good job of encouraging their children to pursue education, we wouldn't be seeing the results we're seeing. Schools are by no means perfect, but all the tools students require to get a fairly decent education are within them. Everything you need to do very well on any examination you care to list is taught in schools. I walked out of school capable and competent with regards to the subjects taught. Some other students didn't. We had the same school, so what was the differing factor? Parents. |
I would contend that the schooling structure that the govt had decided would work for everyone, worked well for you, but didn't work so well for those kids who didn't succeed. You obviously went to a very good school. I was lucky in that respect, also. But, not every person is the same in that respect , some would be better served going to vocational colleges, others to science or perhaps sports centered schools.
Now, you will probably say that those programs existed at your school. But do those projects exist in public schools in the Bronx? Or in Detroit?
| Quote: |
| Blame the government is an easy response, and it's not wrong per se; governmental criticism is good, and there's much to criticize. But the American people need a nice big helping of blaming themselves served alongside it if anything's ever to change. |
Agreed. But what good will it do? You never get anywhere when you criticize, condemn and complain about people. It only entrenches people's behavior and perpetuates the attribute you're trying to change. I am saying the easiest way of doing this, is by forcing improvement in our schools through the mechanism of competition. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
You seem to be responding to me as if I'm attacking the ideas you're presenting. I'm not; my commentary about parents is an addition -- I feel an important one -- to the conversation. In fact, my initial post more or less opened up with a basic agreement with the issues you raised:
| Fox wrote: |
| Our educational system could definitely use some work. Teacher's unions are definitely too powerful right now, and adding more choice to the school system probably wouldn't be a bad thing. |
As far as your questions regarding how we can possibly going about changing culture, just by talking about it and pressing the issue we can do our part to move towards change. Ghandi's "You must be the change you wish to see in the world," quotation is a great truth I feel. Well, part of the change I want to see in the world is a populace that recognizes its own responsibilities and accepts them, and as such, I'm compelled to expound upon such matters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
The discussion at hand is that education for grades K - 12 in the US is bad, therefore there is a problem with student and parent attitudes wrt to parenting generally and education specifically. I disagree. Most parents I meet do value their children's future generally and value their children's education specifically. Parents simply don't have choice, that is the problem. I live in a city where most of the violent crime happens at or near public schools; it's disgusting. What can you do as a parent? Charter schools are your only option. However, like NYC there is a lottery for such schools. Given a choice, any parent in this city will immediately yank their kid out of the public schools and put them in a charter school. Still, many parents are denied a choice of schools. The state and its client, the teachers' union, don't want the parents to have choice despite the mediocrity, the drugs, the gangs and the violence that is so pervasive throughout this city's public schools.
Also, publicly funded (as opposed to publicly directed) schools can work. In fact, they do work. To wit, at the tertiary level, colleges, universities and graduate schools in the United States are the best in the World, bar none. Yes, I even went to one of those dastardly public universities for my graduate education and it was still certainly better than more than 95% of the world's universities. I feel I received a world class education and I am extremely satisfied. The reason I bring up universities is because it begs a question. What are universities doing right and what are K - 12 schools doing wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Senior wrote: |
I don't see it. Were rates of broken homes and neglectful parents any higher now, than in the past? I don't know.
|
| Quote: |
| [quote="Senior"] Perhaps the parents do share some of the blame. Unfortunately, parents don't teach kids maths or science, they pay teachers to do that for them.. |
I think you kind of made Fox's point here. Success oriented parents do teach their kids math, science, literacy (etc.) even if it means they have to review the subjects themselves. Yes most parents want the best for the children. Yet, when it comes down to it, most people are intellectually lazy. Sure many parents will tell their children to do their homework or help answer questions- but that simply isn't enough to become academically competitive. Dinner conversation should focus on stimulating analytical puzzles. Weekend trips to play mini-golf should be lessons in Newtonian physics. Hikes through the woods allow for lessons on the chemistry chlorophyll. Trips to historical sights should engender conversation on sociological issues.
| Pluto wrote: |
| . What are universities doing right and what are K - 12 schools doing wrong? |
The biggest factors are probably selection bias and the voluntary nature of the education- universities can pick and choose from the top 1/3rd of high school graduates. A K-12 public school system must not only accept all students, but is legally mandated to prevent them from leaving voluntarily. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="kotakji"]
| Senior wrote: |
I don't see it. Were rates of broken homes and neglectful parents any higher now, than in the past? I don't know.
|
| Quote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Perhaps the parents do share some of the blame. Unfortunately, parents don't teach kids maths or science, they pay teachers to do that for them.. |
I think you kind of made Fox's point here. Success oriented parents do teach their kids math, science, literacy (etc.) even if it means they have to review the subjects themselves. Yes most parents want the best for the children. Yet, when it comes down to it, most people are intellectually lazy. Sure many parents will tell their children to do their homework or help answer questions- but that simply isn't enough to become academically competitive. Dinner conversation should focus on stimulating analytical puzzles. Weekend trips to play mini-golf should be lessons in Newtonian physics. Hikes through the woods allow for lessons on the chemistry chlorophyll. Trips to historical sights should engender conversation on sociological issues.
|
Maybe you are right, but I think you might be overstating your case. My mother read to me every night, so I picked up a love for reading. My father taught me how to use tools, but I never enjoyed it or became particularly adept at such things. I think kids will seek out the stuff they want. They can't really do that if they are stuck in a classroom being half taught stuff they don't care about.
I think there may be some truth in what you say. Even the stuff I'm bad at eg working with tools, I still remember vividly the things my father taught me at a young age.
However, that stuff is free. We don't spend $25,000 a year per student on homework or help answering questions, dinner conversation, analytical puzzles, weekend trips to play mini-golf, lessons in Newtonian physics, hikes through the woods allowing for lessons on the chemistry of chlorophyll, trips to historical sights engenderingconversation on sociological issues etc. You could literally pay every parent in the US to stay home and teach their kids for that kind of cash.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/12/17/dc-vouchers-solved-generous-severance-for-displaced-workers/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
