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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I am annoyed that the whole society is misusing terms. |
Yes. For example. . .
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| America is not a socialist state in a classical sense like Germany. . . |
Germany isn't socialist, in a classical sense or otherwise. This isn't the 1930s.
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/Germany
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/UnitedStates
Germany has superior trade freedom, superior monetary freedom, superior investment freedom and superior property rights to the US.
In short, it has a mixed economy.
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| ...due to the fact it does NOT take care of it's own people |
The definition of socialism is not taking care of its own people.
We don't generally define things in flattering and biased terms.
| Quote: |
Socialism is a political philosophy that encompasses various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism |
| Quote: |
Socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism |
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AsiaESLbound
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Location: Truck Stop Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:13 am Post subject: |
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When we say Germany, we don't mean all of Europe, just Germany as many of you know, Great Britain is nothing like Germany. Right, Germany is not still in classical socialism, it changed in the 90's where the DB train system went into private ownership and capitalism took off in most other industries too. Germany is very much a powerhouse of a tech hardware mover and money shaker. I see Germany as having more competitive protected advantages over the US when it comes to capitalism. Today's socialism is very different than the old where everything was owned by the state, but it's now about protecting and providing a people with economic opportunities that make sense. Capitalism has to have some country system control to protect the majorities interests unlike in America where it's gone unfettered to the point of being severely out of balance causing an economic crisis that just lingers on for the majority. All while the wealthy continue to take advantage of easy financial markets skimming which further degrades the domestic economy due to focusing only on lucrative short term profits instead of investing in people and redeveloping the USA as to realign it to compete in today's' global economy.
What I mean by socialism in Germany is they pay almost any unemployed citizen regardless of the reason why they are unemployed, pay for higher education, have decent career counseling services in cooperation with companies, and have a universal health care system. All at a cost of around 35% income tax depending on your marital status and income. Tax is more if you are married, but this system seems to work better by forcing everyone to share in the wealth so no one goes without a minimal paycheck and provisions. I think they got a great system going on. Of course they manufacture many awesome products to support it all, but there is concern the social system may become too expensive at some point in time much like how Americans are concerned about their social security system going bust. American taxes must go up and everyone pays in.
I'm all for it if the USA can take a good look at Germany as a model that works and goes with that plan. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| When we say Germany, we don't mean all of Europe |
Thanks for clearing up that great mystery
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| Today's socialism is very different than the old where everything was owned by the state, but it's now about protecting and providing a people with economic opportunities that make sense. |
Again, a totally subjective and flattering definition
Socialism still means government-ownership and operation. "Socialized medicine" - government ownership and operation of medicine.
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| Capitalism has to have some country system control to protect the majorities interests unlike in America where it's gone unfettered to the point of being severely out of balance causing an economic crisis that just lingers on for the majority. |
The American economy isn't remotely unfettered and the government played a decisive role in the economic crisis. An internet search for Thomas Sowell, Dan Mitchell, Eamonn Butler and Peter Schiff on your part will uncover the facts.
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| All while the wealthy continue to take advantage of easy financial markets skimming which further degrades the domestic economy due to focusing only on lucrative short term profits |
It also attracts extra capital that otherwise wouldn't be attracted and provides jobs
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| instead of investing in people and redeveloping the USA as to realign it to compete in today's' global economy. |
"investing in people" and "compete in today's global economy" is empty and essentially meaningless political rhetoric
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| What I mean by socialism in Germany is they pay almost any unemployed citizen regardless of the reason why they are unemployed, pay for higher education, have decent career counseling services in cooperation with companies, and have a universal health care system. All at a cost of around 35% income tax depending on your marital status and income. Tax is more if you are married, but this system seems to work better by forcing everyone to share in the wealth so no one goes without a minimal paycheck and provisions. |
It has a welfare state, yes. So does Saudi Arabia, but we rarely hear of Saudi 'socialism' - I wonder why! (Saudi Arabia doesn't have a flattering image, unlike Germany). In any case, a welfare state with a relatively free private sector makes it a mixed economy. If one were to describe Germany as capitalist, or classically capitalist because of its superior economic freedoms to the US, it would be just as false as to say that Germany is socialist, or classically socialist, because of its more extensive welfare state than the US. 'Mixed economy' suffices for most people. |
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kiknkorea
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| All while the wealthy continue to take advantage of easy financial markets skimming which further degrades the domestic economy due to focusing only on lucrative short term profits |
It also attracts extra capital that otherwise wouldn't be attracted and provides jobs
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| instead of investing in people and redeveloping the USA as to realign it to compete in today's' global economy. |
"investing in people" and "compete in today's global economy" is empty and essentially meaningless political rhetoric |
+1
Well said Sergio. |
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AsiaESLbound
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Location: Truck Stop Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Sergio, why didn't you go into politics or practicing law? You argue well. Like all heated issues, there are at least 2 sides to them due to pros and cons of more than one side.
Uh by the way, does socialism really still exist anywhere? America is only hotly debating socialism, because it means bailing out the rich bankers who created a big mess. Sure, it appears Obama saved the world from financial disaster, but more money is being printed to issue more consumer credit to keep this cycle going. The financial crisis is far from over.
Charge $1000 in the next 3 months on a new Delta card and you get 30,000 bonus miles, enough for a trip.
Retail sales are only picking up to prop up the news and financial markets due to newly issued consumer credit; not becuase there are new jobs and people are doing better at the bank. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
| When we say Germany, we don't mean all of Europe, just Germany as many of you know, Great Britain is nothing like Germany. Right, Germany is not still in classical socialism, it changed in the 90's where the DB train system went into private ownership and capitalism took off in most other industries too. Germany is very much a powerhouse of a tech hardware mover and money shaker. I see Germany as having more competitive protected advantages over the US when it comes to capitalism. Today's socialism is very different than the old where everything was owned by the state, but it's now about protecting and providing a people with economic opportunities that make sense. Capitalism has to have some country system control to protect the majorities interests unlike in America where it's gone unfettered to the point of being severely out of balance causing an economic crisis that just lingers on for the majority. All while the wealthy continue to take advantage of easy financial markets skimming which further degrades the domestic economy due to focusing only on lucrative short term profits instead of investing in people and redeveloping the USA as to realign it to compete in today's' global economy. |
The US has the opposite of "unfettered capitalism". You're making the common mistake of confusing capitalism (which in its pure form operates under free market economics) with corporatism, which is basically the exact same thing as fascism or communism (forms of socialism at the same end of the spectrum). The US is actually experiencing unfettered corporatism, caused by the Federal Reserve System (central bank that creates all money out of nothing as debt, and the private banking mega-structure that owns it) and Wall Street working with our hopelessly corrupt government to rob the rest of us blind. Make no mistake, the US is a very socialist country, there is no free market anymore.
| Quote: |
What I mean by socialism in Germany is they pay almost any unemployed citizen regardless of the reason why they are unemployed, pay for higher education, have decent career counseling services in cooperation with companies, and have a universal health care system. All at a cost of around 35% income tax depending on your marital status and income. Tax is more if you are married, but this system seems to work better by forcing everyone to share in the wealth so no one goes without a minimal paycheck and provisions. I think they got a great system going on. Of course they manufacture many awesome products to support it all, but there is concern the social system may become too expensive at some point in time much like how Americans are concerned about their social security system going bust. American taxes must go up and everyone pays in.
I'm all for it if the USA can take a good look at Germany as a model that works and goes with that plan. |
Germany is a powerhouse only because of their manufacturing base. It is the only reason they are able to survive despite having such a high tax rate (simply because they are a productive nation). Other countries like Greece have high tax rates and ridiculous entitlement programs for their citizens, but are bankrupt.
It's quite simple: there's no such thing as a free lunch. Countries that produce more are wealthier. Countries that spend beyond their means go bust and fail. Raising taxes just compounds the problem. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| As others have stated, America privatizes reward and socializes risk. |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Jesus was a socialist. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| thomas pars wrote: |
| Jesus was a socialist. |
No he wasn't. Not by any measure or definition. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
When we say Germany, we don't mean all of Europe, just Germany as many of you know, Great Britain is nothing like Germany. Right, Germany is not still in classical socialism, it changed in the 90's where the DB train system went into private ownership and capitalism took off in most other industries too. Germany is very much a powerhouse of a tech hardware mover and money shaker. I see Germany as having more competitive protected advantages over the US when it comes to capitalism. Today's socialism is very different than the old where everything was owned by the state, but it's now about protecting and providing a people with economic opportunities that make sense. Capitalism has to have some country system control to protect the majorities interests unlike in America where it's gone unfettered to the point of being severely out of balance causing an economic crisis that just lingers on for the majority. All while the wealthy continue to take advantage of easy financial markets skimming which further degrades the domestic economy due to focusing only on lucrative short term profits instead of investing in people and redeveloping the USA as to realign it to compete in today's' global economy.
What I mean by socialism in Germany is they pay almost any unemployed citizen regardless of the reason why they are unemployed, pay for higher education, have decent career counseling services in cooperation with companies, and have a universal health care system. All at a cost of around 35% income tax depending on your marital status and income. Tax is more if you are married, but this system seems to work better by forcing everyone to share in the wealth so no one goes without a minimal paycheck and provisions. I think they got a great system going on. Of course they manufacture many awesome products to support it all, but there is concern the social system may become too expensive at some point in time much like how Americans are concerned about their social security system going bust. American taxes must go up and everyone pays in.
I'm all for it if the USA can take a good look at Germany as a model that works and goes with that plan. |
Well, this touches into the myth of opportunity in the United States in comparison to some of its counterparts in the West including Germany and Canada. There is more opportunity in the US when compared to most states, but it is lagging behind certain states and a democracy necessitates opportunity, IMHO.
As far as Jesus being a socialist, he did stress charity, that's rather tricky. However, he was not like the kind of Republicans who say if someone has no health insurance, it's not his problem. Jesus healed as many people as he could. The point was their faith. It was not about their money. He even said that a rich man has as much of a chance entering the Kingdom as a camel through an eye of a needle. Essentially, he was saying many wealthy people are blinded by their arrogance.
He also said blessed are the poor (not curse the poor) for they shall inherit the Earth. He also said love thy neighbor as you love yourself and judge not lest thee by judged (not say, get a job, you bum). It doesn't mean he didn't believe people shouldn't productive, they should be... He talked about fruitful fig trees....He did stress the importance of charity and helping others, not saying it's not my problem. He also spoke of when certain people helped others, it was as if they helped Jesus, for others were dear to him.
That's not communism, but it's closer to the ideas of socialism than corporatist capitalism, obviously. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
When we say Germany, we don't mean all of Europe, just Germany as many of you know, Great Britain is nothing like Germany. Right, Germany is not still in classical socialism, it changed in the 90's where the DB train system went into private ownership and capitalism took off in most other industries too. ...............merican taxes must go up and everyone pays in.
I'm all for it if the USA can take a good look at Germany as a model that works and goes with that plan. |
Well, this touches into the myth of opportunity in the United States in comparison to some of its counterparts in the West including Germany and Canada. There is more opportunity in the US when compared to most states, but it is lagging behind certain states and a democracy necessitates opportunity, IMHO. |
The United States was historically the land of opportunity, because anyone could go there and relatively easily set up a business. Low taxes, and few cumbersome regulations made it possible to thrive, if you were talented and hard working.
| Quote: |
As far as Jesus being a socialist, he did stress charity, that's rather tricky. However, he was not like the kind of Republicans who say if someone has no health insurance, it's not his problem. Jesus healed as many people as he could. The point was their faith. It was not about their money. He even said that a rich man has as much of a chance entering the Kingdom as a camel through an eye of a needle. Essentially, he was saying many wealthy people are blinded by their arrogance. |
Haha, maybe we need Jesus to come back. That should solve a lot of health care problems.
Charity is a free market principle. Socialized medicine is the opposite of charity. How can it be charity if the cash given involuntarily?
| Quote: |
He also said blessed are the poor (not curse the poor) for they shall inherit the Earth. He also said love thy neighbor as you love yourself and judge not lest thee by judged (not say, get a job, you bum). It doesn't mean he didn't believe people shouldn't productive, they should be... He talked about fruitful fig trees....He did stress the importance of charity and helping others, not saying it's not my problem. He also spoke of when certain people helped others, it was as if they helped Jesus, for others were dear to him.
That's not communism, but it's closer to the ideas of socialism than corporatist capitalism, obviously. |
You talk like the two ends of the spectrum are communism and corporatism. In a free market capitalist system there will actually be more charity. Simply because there is more wealth. Rich people give away money. This is a simple fact. You only have to look as far as Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. Even at lower levels of income, people give money away. When the govt takes on this role and chooses which charities are most worthy, we have less charity. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Private charity comes with private strings attached. Public charity comes with public strings attached, which are more open to review and responsive to the participatory process. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Zilong wrote: |
| Private charity comes with private strings attached. Public charity comes with public strings attached, which are more open to review and responsive to the participatory process. |
Why do you even bother posting? I've never seen you post anything that isn't a platitude or completely meaningless. If English isn't your native language, I apologize.
Explicate some meaning out of, or add some examples to this nonsense or stfu. Trite cliches, splattered with meaningless/out of context, 10 dollar words do not make you sound smart. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Charity is a free market principle. Socialized medicine is the opposite of charity. How can it be charity if the cash given involuntarily? |
This is just another Libertarian redefinition of words. Social programs can be a form of charity. Private non-profits can also be a form of charity. Direct gifts can also be a form of charity. Charity is about redistributing wealth to the needy without asking for recompense. Institutionalized charity (like tax-funded social programs, or charitable actions that are codified in religious law) doesn't stop being charity.
Charity is not a free market principle. It's also not a socialist principle. It's an ethical principle: the idea of distributing wealth to the needy without asking anything in return. Free markets and socialist systems simply engage in charity in different fashions. |
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Zilong
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Zilong wrote: |
| Private charity comes with private strings attached. Public charity comes with public strings attached, which are more open to review and responsive to the participatory process. |
Why do you even bother posting? I've never seen you post anything that isn't a platitude or completely meaningless. If English isn't your native language, I apologize.
Explicate some meaning out of, or add some examples to this nonsense or stfu. Trite cliches, splattered with meaningless/out of context, 10 dollar words do not make you sound smart. |
If you can't unpack the meaning, I suppose that's on you to up your reading comprehension skills or maybe it's just a simple question of improving your vocabulary. Your response was nothing more than a simplistic, snarky iteration on 'fraid not'. |
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