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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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You're accepting the orthodoxy of the past 40 years. An orthodoxy that was lobbied for by food companies.
Science, and specifically scientific consensus, in America is not reliable. Even the peer-reviewed stuff is corrupted. All one can do is read competing ideas and try to piece together reality with knowledge (in this case) of evolution, dietary history, familial and personal experience and the rest. I use self-experimentation. Low carb, high fat has worked for me. Add in a very large dose of vitamin d and I've never been more healthy. Despite what the American such and such organization says. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
[
F
The first of the referenced studies simply links eating cereal to increased fiber intake. Big whoop? Besides, how do I know the data wasn't cheery picked? See how that works? |
Doesn't work at all. JAMA is a reputable peer-reviewed journal. Which means that stuff that is CHERRY-picked or otherwise questionable doesn't make it in there.
Now if you are quite done humiliating yourself...maybe you'd like to provide some links and let us check where you are getting your info from?
Otherwise the only conclusion is that you are making this up as you go along. |
Good grief. No need to get your panties in a twist. I've mentioned Taubes.
This guy is pretty good.
http://www.paleonu.com/get-started/
Far better than that nut job cdninkorea posted.
I actually posted the link that started this thread, in another thread earlier last week. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I was first exposed to these ideas by a talk that Nassim Taleb gave. He was going on about complex systems, robust systems and change and slipped in that humans recently changed their diet with deleterious consequences. That stuck with me. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I was first exposed to these ideas by a talk that Nassim Taleb gave. He was going on about complex systems, robust systems and change and slipped in that humans recently changed their diet with deleterious consequences. That stuck with me. |
Ha. My first exposure to this idea was far less egg heady than Nassim Taleb.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1333994/ |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I saw Fat Head too. It was well done for being so low budget.
Taleb takes it real far. He tries to replicate the style of living pre-modern man had. He runs short bursts at random times and works out only by lifting objects above his head. He eats a "paleo" diet. It's all quite odd. But it works for him. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Yeah, I saw Fat Head too. It was well done for being so low budget.
Taleb takes it real far. He tries to replicate the style of living pre-modern man had. He runs short bursts at random times and works out only by lifting objects above his head. He eats a "paleo" diet. It's all quite odd. But it works for him. |
I like the philosophy of this guy.
http://www.paleonu.com/get-started/
He doesn't discredit some "neolithic" foods. Dairy is modern for instance. But, butter and cream are still good foods.
I definitely agree that the idea we need 30 mins of "cardio" to stay healthy to be ridiculous. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
I definitely agree that the idea we need 30 mins of "cardio" to stay healthy to be ridiculous. |
Absolutely you're right. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
You're accepting the orthodoxy of the past 40 years. An orthodoxy that was lobbied for by food companies.
Science, and specifically scientific consensus, in America is not reliable. Even the peer-reviewed stuff is corrupted. All one can do is read competing ideas and try to piece together reality with knowledge (in this case) of evolution, dietary history, familial and personal experience and the rest. I use self-experimentation. Low carb, high fat has worked for me. Add in a very large dose of vitamin d and I've never been more healthy. Despite what the American such and such organization says. |
High carb low fat has worked for me. Given that my personal experience is the opposite of yours...I'll have to go with the vast majority of doctors and nutritionists on this one.
When you say science is not reliable...well that's painting with a broad brush. You don't believe in evolution then just to cite a single example?
But yes I do agree about the cardio |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
You're accepting the orthodoxy of the past 40 years. An orthodoxy that was lobbied for by food companies.
Science, and specifically scientific consensus, in America is not reliable. Even the peer-reviewed stuff is corrupted. All one can do is read competing ideas and try to piece together reality with knowledge (in this case) of evolution, dietary history, familial and personal experience and the rest. I use self-experimentation. Low carb, high fat has worked for me. Add in a very large dose of vitamin d and I've never been more healthy. Despite what the American such and such organization says. |
High carb low fat has worked for me. Given that my personal experience is the opposite of yours...I'll have to go with the vast majority of doctors and nutritionists on this one.
When you say science is not reliable...well that's painting with a broad brush. You don't believe in evolution then just to cite a single example?
But yes I do agree about the cardio |
Too scared to post your BMI? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I looked at that site:
http://www.paleonu.com/get-started/
| Quote: |
1. Eliminate sugar (including fruit juices and sports drinks) and all foods that contain flour.
2. Start eating proper fats - Use healthy animal fats or coconut fat to substitute fat calories for carbohydrate calories that formerly came from sugar and flour. Drink whole cream or coconut milk.
3. Eliminate gluten grains. Limit grains like corn and rice, which are nutritionally poor.
4. Eliminate grain and seed derived oils (cooking oils) Cook with Ghee, butter, animal fats, or coconut oil.
5. Favor ruminants like beef, lamb and bison for your meat. Eat eggs and some fish.
6. Get daily midday sun or take 2-8000 iu vit D daily.
7. Try intermittent fasting or infrequent meals (2 meals a day is best). Don't graze like a herbivore.
8. Adjust your 6s and 3s. Pastured (grass fed) dairy and grass fed beef or bison has a more optimal 6:3 ratio, more vitamins and CLA. A teaspoon or two of Carlson's fish oil (1-2 g DHA/EPA) daily is good compensatory supplementation if you eat grain-fed beef or no fish.
9. Proper exercise - emphasizing resistance and interval training over long aerobic sessions.
10. Most modern fruit is just a candy bar from a tree. Go easy on bags of sugar like apples. Stick with berries and avoid watermelon which is pure fructose. Eat in moderation.
11. Eliminate legumes
12. Eliminate all remaining dairy including cheese- (now you are "Orthodox paleolithic") |
Wow. Ok, that's my diet (plus lots of cheese.. I'm not giving up cheese). And I just buy meat. I'm too cheap to go to Whole Foods and by grain fed/organic etc. I use coconut milk lots. It's incredibly delicious. Malay/Indonesians use it quite a bit. It's outstanding as a base for yellow curry.
The really good thing about this diet is that hunger never arrives. A big breakfast of meat/eggs and meaty lunch is more than enough. I probably eat below my recommended caloric intake but am never ever hungry. Stable energy, no crash, no fatigue. Just a normal feeling all the time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
You're accepting the orthodoxy of the past 40 years. An orthodoxy that was lobbied for by food companies.
Science, and specifically scientific consensus, in America is not reliable. Even the peer-reviewed stuff is corrupted. All one can do is read competing ideas and try to piece together reality with knowledge (in this case) of evolution, dietary history, familial and personal experience and the rest. I use self-experimentation. Low carb, high fat has worked for me. Add in a very large dose of vitamin d and I've never been more healthy. Despite what the American such and such organization says. |
High carb low fat has worked for me. Given that my personal experience is the opposite of yours...I'll have to go with the vast majority of doctors and nutritionists on this one.
When you say science is not reliable...well that's painting with a broad brush. You don't believe in evolution then just to cite a single example?
But yes I do agree about the cardio |
Too scared to post your BMI? |
Last time I posted my weight and height the peanut gallery became insecure. Not interested in round 2.
Besides which this is the Internet. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| High carb low fat has worked for me. |
That's fine. We don't have to agree.
| Quote: |
| Given that my personal experience is the opposite of yours...I'll have to go with the vast majority of doctors and nutritionists on this one. |
They merely push what the government pushes on them. The food pyramid is the result of lobbying.
| Quote: |
| When you say science is not reliable...well that's painting with a broad brush. You don't believe in evolution then just to cite a single example? |
I strongly believe in evolution. I don't believe in much of AGW, hiv/aids hysteria, biological egalitarianism, dietary guidelines, swine flu/bird flu etc. And the mental health pharma-industry is vile. The peer review process has been corrupted by corporate interests. I've posted many examples on dave's about drug research and similar. I'm extremely skeptical of everything. I'm convinced that science is a tool of the powerful and not - on balance - a quest for truth with evidence. Of course there are advances and breakthroughs but the dogma is strong. The process of allocating research grants is state-based and researchers are corrupted by support from firms. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
You're accepting the orthodoxy of the past 40 years. An orthodoxy that was lobbied for by food companies.
Science, and specifically scientific consensus, in America is not reliable. Even the peer-reviewed stuff is corrupted. All one can do is read competing ideas and try to piece together reality with knowledge (in this case) of evolution, dietary history, familial and personal experience and the rest. I use self-experimentation. Low carb, high fat has worked for me. Add in a very large dose of vitamin d and I've never been more healthy. Despite what the American such and such organization says. |
High carb low fat has worked for me. Given that my personal experience is the opposite of yours...I'll have to go with the vast majority of doctors and nutritionists on this one.
When you say science is not reliable...well that's painting with a broad brush. You don't believe in evolution then just to cite a single example?
But yes I do agree about the cardio |
Too scared to post your BMI? |
Last time I posted my weight and height the peanut gallery became insecure. Not interested in round 2.
Besides which this is the Internet. |
Haha, I was just joshn' ya. You hurt my feelings with your jibes. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Alright, I looked at that site:
http://www.paleonu.com/get-started/
| Quote: |
1. Eliminate sugar (including fruit juices and sports drinks) and all foods that contain flour.
2. Start eating proper fats - Use healthy animal fats or coconut fat to substitute fat calories for carbohydrate calories that formerly came from sugar and flour. Drink whole cream or coconut milk.
3. Eliminate gluten grains. Limit grains like corn and rice, which are nutritionally poor.
4. Eliminate grain and seed derived oils (cooking oils) Cook with Ghee, butter, animal fats, or coconut oil.
5. Favor ruminants like beef, lamb and bison for your meat. Eat eggs and some fish.
6. Get daily midday sun or take 2-8000 iu vit D daily.
7. Try intermittent fasting or infrequent meals (2 meals a day is best). Don't graze like a herbivore.
8. Adjust your 6s and 3s. Pastured (grass fed) dairy and grass fed beef or bison has a more optimal 6:3 ratio, more vitamins and CLA. A teaspoon or two of Carlson's fish oil (1-2 g DHA/EPA) daily is good compensatory supplementation if you eat grain-fed beef or no fish.
9. Proper exercise - emphasizing resistance and interval training over long aerobic sessions.
10. Most modern fruit is just a candy bar from a tree. Go easy on bags of sugar like apples. Stick with berries and avoid watermelon which is pure fructose. Eat in moderation.
11. Eliminate legumes
12. Eliminate all remaining dairy including cheese- (now you are "Orthodox paleolithic") |
Wow. Ok, that's my diet (plus lots of cheese.. I'm not giving up cheese). And I just buy meat. I'm too cheap to go to Whole Foods and by grain fed/organic etc. I use coconut milk lots. It's incredibly delicious. Malay/Indonesians use it quite a bit. It's outstanding as a base for yellow curry.
The really good thing about this diet is that hunger never arrives. A big breakfast of meat/eggs and meaty lunch is more than enough. I probably eat below my recommended caloric intake but am never ever hungry. Stable energy, no crash, no fatigue. Just a normal feeling all the time. |
If you eliminate all these things of course you are going to lose weight for two reasons.
1 You are thinking about what you are eating and will eat less because of that.
2 Cutting out so many things will limit your options so once again you eat less.
basically that is how all these diet plans work..by drastically cutting options.
Also
| Quote: |
| I probably eat below my recommended caloric intake but am never ever hungry |
If you mean that you eat just below the calories needed to maintain your current weight, then you guys are arguing at cross purposes. Of course you will lose weight on basically any diet if you are below your recommended calories intake.
edit: I have a bmi of 23.8. I would prefer to be higher. Everyone I know with a body I'd like have a bmi in the 'overweight' scale because of high muscle mass. I wouldn't read too much into bmi.
I tend to eat a typical food pyramid diet..I eat alot of grains but mainly brown rice and buckwheat for dinners and millet for breakfast. I eat as much fruit and veg as possible and probably too many nuts. Meats are typically chicken (i have a cheap chicken guy) and tuna. I really don't think you have to overthink this stuff. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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1 You are thinking about what you are eating and will eat less because of that.
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I eat foods that the orthodxy insist will make me fat. Lots of them.
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2 Cutting out so many things will limit your options so once again you eat less.
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My options are limited. I don't eat things that make humans fat.
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basically that is how all these diet plans work..by drastically cutting options.
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I avoid foods that make humans fat. I don't drink soda. I don't eat the stuff that we would feed the pigs back on the farm to fatten them up.
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If you mean that you eat just below the calories needed to maintain your current weight, then you guys are arguing at cross purposes. Of course you will lose weight on basically any diet if you are below your recommended calories intake.
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No. I have a very erratic schedule. For 2-3 weeks straight I'll walk two hours a night and go to the gym and then for a couple months not be able to go for an evening stroll even once. Regardless of my exercise level my weight stays exactly the same. Only consistency is my diet. No matter what my caloric expenditure is my weight does not change though my diet stays the same.
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I tend to eat a typical food pyramid diet..I eat alot of grains but mainly brown rice and buckwheat for dinners and millet for breakfast. I eat as much fruit and veg as possible and probably too many nuts. Meats are typically chicken (i have a cheap chicken guy) and tuna. I really don't think you have to overthink this stuff.
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You don't have to over-think it. The meta study in the OP suggests that your diet is unhealthy due to the grains and is the cause of obesity and other diseases of civilization. |
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