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Defiant Judge Takes On Child Pornography Law
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 8:27 am    Post subject: Defiant Judge Takes On Child Pornography Law Reply with quote

Can someone actually be trying to inject some sanity here? Unfortunately, it takes someone at the end of his career who has little left to lose.

Defiant Judge Takes On Child Pornography Law

By A. G. SULZBERGER
Published: May 21, 2010

In his 43-year career as a federal judge, Jack B. Weinstein has come to be identified by his efforts to combat what he calls �the unnecessary cruelty of the law.� His most recent crusade is particularly striking because of the beneficiary: a man who has amassed a vast collection of child pornography.

Judge Weinstein, who sits in the United States District Court in Brooklyn, has twice thrown out convictions that would have ensured that the man spend at least five years behind bars. He has pledged to break protocol and inform the next jury about the mandatory prison sentence that the charges carry. And he recently declared that the man, who is awaiting a new trial, did not need an electronic ankle bracelet because he posed �no risk to society.�

There is little public sympathy for collectors of child pornography. Yet across the country, an increasing number of federal judges have come to their defense, criticizing changes to sentencing laws that have effectively quadrupled their average prison term over the last decade.

Last week, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit vacated a 20-year child pornography sentence by ruling that the sentencing guidelines for such cases, �unless applied with great care, can lead to unreasonable sentences.� The decision noted that the recommended sentences for looking at pictures of children being sexually abused sometimes eclipse those for actually sexually abusing a child.

Judge Weinstein has gone to extraordinary lengths to challenge the strict punishments, issuing a series of rulings that directly attack the mandatory five-year prison sentence faced by defendants charged with receiving child pornography.

�I don�t approve of child pornography, obviously,� he said in an interview this week. But, he also said, he does not believe that those who view the images, as opposed to producing or selling them, present a threat to children.

�We�re destroying lives unnecessarily,� he said. �At the most, they should be receiving treatment and supervision.�

The man he has spent three years trying to save from a long incarceration is Pietro Polizzi, a married father of five who collected more than 5,000 graphic pictures of children. If prosecuted in a New York State court, he would have faced a maximum prison sentence of four years. Instead, in federal court, he faced a minimum of five years and a recommended sentence of 11 to 14 years. Because of Judge Weinstein�s intervention, he remains free as he awaits another trial.

continued at link
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Forever



Joined: 12 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what link ?????????
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Defiant Judge Takes On Child Pornography Law Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
�We�re destroying lives unnecessarily,� he said. �At the most, they should be receiving treatment and supervision.�


This statement shows a lot of wisdom. I wish more people -- and by that I mean politicians, judges, and even citizens -- would embrace the principle of, "Never destroy lives unnecessarily," both in the literal and figurative sense.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forever wrote:
what link ?????????

The article's title is a link.

Try it. You'll like it.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But, he also said, he does not believe that those who view the images, as opposed to producing or selling them, present a threat to children.


I agree wholeheartedly, though I do hope he draws the distinction I do between simple possession and purchase. The former should carry no charge; the latter, I believe, should. Whether that charge should carry a mandatory minimum five years in prison is another matter entirely, though.
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mimis



Joined: 24 May 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Difficult topic... I believe in great personal freedom. But where to draw the line? Surely, somebody watching child porn can't be a good thing. And that specific Polizzi guy actually has (five!) children Shocked Sorry, but that just doesn't sound healthy to me.

Maybe it's different for me, as a girl, but "just watching" child porn should be illegal and punishable by a strict sentence. What else is going to deter these people? Is there really a difference between "just watching" and making it and selling it? If nobody would watch, it wouldn't be very interesting for others to make it, no? The people who are "just watching" are enabling and at the very least supporting this awful and disgusting practice.

Destroying lives unnecessarily? What about the children's lives? They are kids for god's sake. If people don't watch child porn, they won't have to deal with long jail sentences- funny how that works, eh.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mimis wrote:
Maybe it's different for me, as a girl, but "just watching" child porn should be illegal and punishable by a strict sentence. What else is going to deter these people?


Nothing is going to deter them. That's the problem with the type of thinking your engaging in here, and why it leads to barbarous social consequences. No matter how much you torment these people for looking at pictures, they're going to keep doing it.

Our criminal justice system needs to focus on the actual abusers: the people who create child pornography.

mimis wrote:
Is there really a difference between "just watching" and making it and selling it?


Yes, there is. The person who made it directly abused a child. The person watching it didn't harm anyone, and if they didn't purchase it, they didn't even provide an incentive for its creation.

mimis wrote:
Destroying lives unnecessarily? What about the children's lives?


The children's lives weren't destroyed by some guy who downloaded a picture -- potentially years later -- off of the internet for free, so destroying his life in return doesn't make much sense.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but your thought pattern on this is a perfect demonstration of why our society's sex laws are so abusive and out of control.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Fox and disagree with mimis. I used to think like mimis, but I learned about Traci Lords.

She was 15 when she started appearing in porn films, because she lied about her age. But the people watching were under the impression she was 18. Where do you draw the line on that one?

Someone who downloads some videos, or likes some pornographic Japanese comics is not the same as someone who creates child porn.
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kabrams



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:

She was 15 when she started appearing in porn films, because she lied about her age. But the people watching were under the impression she was 18. Where do you draw the line on that one?


The Traci Lords story is a sad one. The people were under the impression that she was 18, and under those circumstances, it would be irresponsible to target and press charges against the men and women who viewed those videos.

Fox wrote:
Our criminal justice system needs to focus on the actual abusers: the people who create child pornography.


There is direct harm (the people who actually film children being raped) and indirect harm (the people who watch, buy and download such film, who support the industry of child rape videos). Both are powerful forms of abuse.

The industry of child rape videos isn't some underground thing comprised of sad old men in their mothers' basements masturbating to grainy footage of children being raped.

There are actual businesses that produce these videos, ranging from legal videos, where they pick super-young looking children or use Photoshop, to actual illegal videos of children being raped. The illegal part of the industry makes billions of dollars a year.

It is almost impossible to find/trace the people who film these videos. It is much easier to find/trace the people who support the industry by buying these videos.

In cases of non-purchased support, the incentive is in the form of normalizing this practice in the eyes of people who do purchase videos depicting child rape.

Supporting an industry of child rape is as bad as filming videos of child rape. This may be getting into "thought police" and is definitely emotionally based, but I stand by my position for criminalization of downloaded child pornography, both purchased and non-purchased.

Quote:

�We�re destroying lives unnecessarily,� he said. �At the most, they should be receiving treatment and supervision.�


I wouldn't use "at most". I would use "at least".
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riverboy



Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think there should be restrictions on people in possesion of childporn.

I'm of the opinion that the viewing of porn brings normalises and desensitizes the individuals who view it. Many-not all- will come to see it as normal and their desires will turn from the video screen to actual live victims. Eventually it will lead to more and more abuse and a worsening of the problem.

I know a lot of people who were abused as kids. I think it is much more prevalent than Bascasper does and I also think it is much more damaging to the victims. People should not be in the possesion of kiddie porn. If they are caught, they should be arrested, fined and their names published for all to know they are a potential threat to society.

And if someone happens to give them a good old fashioned beating aloong the way, may the judge give them a little leniency.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kabrams wrote:
Fox wrote:
Our criminal justice system needs to focus on the actual abusers: the people who create child pornography.


There is direct harm (the people who actually film children being raped) and indirect harm (the people who watch, buy and download such film, who support the industry of child rape videos). Both are powerful forms of abuse.


I partially agree with what you say here. There's direct harm, there's indirect harm (people who fund the industry), and there's non-harm (people who download videos or pictures for free, and as such do nothing to empower the industry to continue to function).

kabrams wrote:
In cases of non-purchased support, the incentive is in the form of normalizing this practice in the eyes of people who do purchase videos depicting child rape.


You're stretching out of a desire to justify prosecution and incarceration of people who haven't actually harmed anyone. I understand the emotions behind your choice to do so, but allowing such emotions to inform the law leads to barbarity. Non-purchasers do nothing to normalize the practice, and do nothing to further empower the creators to create more. These people should be turned into assets for law enforcement agencies, not targets.

If someone is caught with child pornography, they should have to account for where they got it. If they refuse to do so, then they should be treated as if they created it. If on the other hand they comply, they can lead us to the genuine abusers, and in light of the fact that they've harmed no one and assisted in working towards bringing in the real abusers, they certainly should not be incarcerated, or even fined.

What we're doing right now is a failure. That isn't speculation, it's fact: our current methods fail at preventing this type of child abuse. They also destroy lives needlessly. It's time to try something other than "long jail term + endless social ostracization."

riverboy wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the viewing of porn brings normalises and desensitizes the individuals who view it. Many-not all- will come to see it as normal and their desires will turn from the video screen to actual live victims. Eventually it will lead to more and more abuse and a worsening of the problem.


Can you show any data that supports this? Or are you saying that people should be arrested based on your suspicions?
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riverboy



Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you show any data that supports this? Or are you saying that people should be arrested based on your suspicions?


Data? Not off hand, but I am sure I can find some. Dr. Judith Reisman comes to mind. I don't spend a lot of energy defending pedophilia. I do think people should be charged for actively pursuing and possesing child pornogrophy. I don't think the penalties should be as severe as those producing and distributing it. Furthermore, what I do know without having read any studies, is how porn in general has affected our view on sexuality -mine included. It has changed a great deal since we have had unlimited access to porn.

Just look at what porn is like compared to the 80's, when I started watching. In general, it is rougher, dirtier and more degrading. I fear it will just keep getting worse. Kiddieporn apologists, don't seem to think there are any negative side effects of possesing it, I think it leads to acceptance and eventually, more molestation.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

riverboy wrote:
Furthermore, what I do know without having read any studies, is how porn in general has affected our view on sexuality -mine included. It has changed a great deal since we have had unlimited access to porn.


Do you go around raping women now because of porn? Because if not, I'm not seeing how this is related, and this is the only meaningful argument you've actually made so far.

riverboy wrote:
Kiddieporn apologists, don't seem to think there are any negative side effects of possesing it, I think it leads to acceptance and eventually, more molestation.


Who is a kiddie porn apologist? One can take issue with the production of child porn without feeling individuals who download it for free should have their lives ruined. Even using the term apologist here is pure emotional attack, trying to dissuade others from considering the case logically by using emotionally charged language to condemn them. "You don't think some guy's life should be ruined just because he downloaded some pictures off of the net? You're a child pornography apologist!" Come on.
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kabrams



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:

I partially agree with what you say here. There's direct harm, there's indirect harm (people who fund the industry), and there's non-harm (people who download videos or pictures for free, and as such do nothing to empower the industry to continue to function).


I'm confused about the non-harm. Are you talking about direct harm to the child? Because I'm not.

If you download photos and videos and enjoy videos and photos of real (non-imagined) children being raped, I see that as a grievous societal harm.

Consider the fact that many of those who produce child rape videos enjoy a cult-like underground "celebrity". Even if you are only watching child rape videos, you are encouraging these producers and child rapists to continue raping children and/or producing child rape porn.

There is also the issue of privacy, and how with each downloaded picture or video, the Purchaser or Downloader is invading the privacy of the child.

Fox wrote:
You're stretching out of a desire to justify prosecution and incarceration of people who haven't actually harmed anyone. I understand the emotions behind your choice to do so, but allowing such emotions to inform the law leads to barbarity. Non-purchasers do nothing to normalize the practice, and do nothing to further empower the creators to create more. These people should be turned into assets for law enforcement agencies, not targets.


See above for your comments concerning non-purchasers.

I'm actually not advocating long, drawn-out sentences, or consecutive sentences based on the number of videos/photos found on a defendants computer.

Fox wrote:

If someone is caught with child pornography, they should have to account for where they got it. If they refuse to do so, then they should be treated as if they created it. If on the other hand they comply, they can lead us to the genuine abusers, and in light of the fact that they've harmed no one and assisted in working towards bringing in the real abusers, they certainly should not be incarcerated, or even fined.


False, Fox.

You can prove that a child's privacy rights have been violated by people who knowingly possess photographs and videos that were obtained illegally.

As all child rape videos are illegal, if people knowingly download videos/photos of children being raped they violate the child's privacy.

Fox wrote:

What we're doing right now is a failure. That isn't speculation, it's fact: our current methods fail at preventing this type of child abuse. They also destroy lives needlessly. It's time to try something other than "long jail term + endless social ostracization."


I agree.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kabrams wrote:
Fox wrote:

I partially agree with what you say here. There's direct harm, there's indirect harm (people who fund the industry), and there's non-harm (people who download videos or pictures for free, and as such do nothing to empower the industry to continue to function).


I'm confused about the non-harm. Are you talking about direct harm to the child? Because I'm not.


Yes, I'm talking about harm to the child. I don't disagree with the concept of social harm, but unless specific and concrete implications of said social harm can be presented, I strongly disagree with people being criminalized in order to try to address it. I don't see how coming down brutally on possessors of child pornography improves society at all (in fact, the set of sex crime laws we have in place seems to be to be objectively harmful). I do see how using them to apprehend genuine culprits of direct, personal harm improves society, and I do see how getting them help instead of locking them up at taxpayer expense improves society (assuming the limit of their crimes is viewing child pornography).

kabrams wrote:
There is also the issue of privacy, and how with each downloaded picture or video, the Purchaser or Downloader is invading the privacy of the child.


The original person creating the picture or video is the one guilty of a privacy violation. I don't agree that that culpability passes along to people who receive the pictures, unless they were part of the creation process. Each person who views the pictures might increase the severity of the original offense, but nothing more.

kabrams wrote:
Fox wrote:

If someone is caught with child pornography, they should have to account for where they got it. If they refuse to do so, then they should be treated as if they created it. If on the other hand they comply, they can lead us to the genuine abusers, and in light of the fact that they've harmed no one and assisted in working towards bringing in the real abusers, they certainly should not be incarcerated, or even fined.


False, Fox.

You can prove that a child's privacy rights have been violated by people who knowingly possess photographs and videos that were obtained illegally.


You can prove that a child's privacy rights have been violated by the original creator of the video or film. Other people viewing those creations does not constitution additional privacy violations, but rather simply makes the original privacy violation progressively worse.
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