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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
In addition, now that I'm holding Israel to the same standards, I no longer have any need to support it. If Iranian tanks roll down Rothschild Ave in Tel Avi I'm gonna pop some popcorn and crack a beer. Just like I'd do if Chad invaded Sudan. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
In addition, now that I'm holding Israel to the same standards, I no longer have any need to support it. If Iranian tanks roll down Rothschild Ave in Tel Avi I'm gonna pop some popcorn and crack a beer. Just like I'd do if Chad invaded Sudan. |
+1 |
Right. Either they're one of us (Western) or they aren't. If they are, they get the South Africa treatment. If they aren't, bye bye aid and hello international condemnation.
It is their choice. Not mine. I'm happy to include Israel in the west. It's up to them. But no more of this double-standard crap. Though I made the opposite argument about a year ago. I've done a 180 on this issue. I'm noticing that I'm not alone either. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| it is worse than Apartheid South Africa |
Er, not really. Whites were a small minority in South Africa, whereas Jews are the majority (70-80%) of Israeli citizens, so the comparison collapses (underlined by the Arab minority having full voting rights and being represented in the Israeli parliament). Since the Oslo Accords, responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the Palestinian Authority. Neither was Apartheid South Africa subject to anything like the kind of military threats Israel has.
| Bucheon Bum wrote: |
| Neither TUM or .38 Special seem to be able to acknowledge Israel has made mistakes |
The biggest mistake Israel made was handing over any kind of political power. The occupation was previously uneasy but essentially effective, as this economic history of the Territories shows. Thousands of people have since been killed and the economic conditions of the Palestinians plunged both absolutely and relative to what they were at the height of occupation. Here, however, a comparison with South Africa is quite valid, because since the ending of Apartheid, one of the consequences has been this:
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| hack wrote: |
Some here have accused others for being Israeli apologists. That's an oversimplified label for someone trying to understand both sides of the situation. Please don't think I am one because I don't give a crap what others think about what happened on that ship. It's about time that people understand that if you want to provoke Israel, prepare to suffer the consequences. So if you want to be an activist on an "aid ship" to Gaza, understand that while you may be a hero to some people, to a Jew, you are attacking Israel, something even Iran knows better than to try.
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Except the two people I described as apologists don't seem to be "trying to understand both sides of the situation." It is not a term I tend to use.
And sorry, but your POV doesn't speak for every Jewish person out there. While I doubt you'd find few (if any) that would find those activists to be "heros", there are certainly plenty that cringed and are embarassed by the Israeli military's actions against the the ship. This thread provides evidence of that fact. So please don't accuse others of oversimplyfing things when you're doing the exact same.
And if this thread isn't enough for you, here is an Israeli who disagrees with you too. And an American Jew who isn't too thrilled by Israel's actions either.
That is one thing that I like about Israel: the exchange of ideas and unashamed to be critical of itself. Perhaps not unique in the western world, but there are hardly any other countries like that in the M. East at least. There is certainly not the monolithic thinking that you imply in your post. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mises"]
| hack wrote: |
I don't expect others to understand, but for a Jew that's just the way it has to be.
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Interesting, many American Jew sure don't feel that way. Surely this belief is understandable, but counterproductive. Has the Israeli state made Jews safer, improved public perception of Jews, thats a no on both counts. If Jews don't want to be prosecuted then they should practice diversity instead of exceptional-ism. Are American Jews under threat of persecution, are European ones? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Er, not really. Whites were a small minority in South Africa, whereas Jews are the majority (70-80%) of Israeli citizens, so the comparison collapses (underlined by the Arab minority having full voting rights and being represented in the Israeli parliament). |
That isn't a meaningful critique and you know it. The system of check points, internal visa needs etc in Gaza are both comparable to and worse than Apartheid South Africa.
Further, you also know that the comparison in crime with SA isn't meaningful either. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Dude, I often agree with much of what you post on here, but I gotta say in this thread you've spewed some of the most ridiculous apologetics I've seen since the last time Urban Myth opened her mouth... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| they are only open to one ethnic group which by definition is illiberal and racist. |
Many nations restrict immigration on the basis of ethnicity, in that they allow people who can claim ancestry relative freedom to immigrate and to gain citizenship, yet only Israel comes in for such harsh vilification for its 'racism'. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they are only open to one ethnic group which by definition is illiberal and racist. |
Many nations restrict immigration on the basis of ethnicity, in that they allow people who can claim ancestry relative freedom to immigrate and to gain citizenship, yet only Israel comes in for such harsh vilification for its 'racism'. |
I have no opposition that that.
I don't like the violence. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they are only open to one ethnic group which by definition is illiberal and racist. |
Many nations restrict immigration on the basis of ethnicity, in that they allow people who can claim ancestry relative freedom to immigrate and to gain citizenship, yet only Israel comes in for such harsh vilification for its 'racism'. |
It's a nation based entirely on the idea of a homeland for one specific ethnic group. In creating the nation it displaced another group that was already there and created an ethnic under class. It is a fairly unique situation. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they are only open to one ethnic group which by definition is illiberal and racist. |
Many nations restrict immigration on the basis of ethnicity, in that they allow people who can claim ancestry relative freedom to immigrate and to gain citizenship, yet only Israel comes in for such harsh vilification for its 'racism'. |
It's a nation based entirely on the idea of a homeland for one specific ethnic group. In creating the nation it displaced another group that was already there and created an ethnic under class. It is a fairly unique situation. |
That's not unique. The United States and Canada were virtually identical. South Africa too. One group moves in, claims it and pushes out/kills/etc the other group.
The difference is that Jews in the west will scream bloody NAZI if any move on immigration is made whereas they shut the hell up about the same thing in Israel.
Diversity for THEE and not for MEEE |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Are American Jews under threat of persecution, are European ones? |
Do they live in a tiny country surrounded by millions of hostile Muslims who wish for their destruction? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Are American Jews under threat of persecution, are European ones? |
Do they live in a tiny country surrounded by millions of hostile Muslims who wish for their destruction? |
Beverly Hills, the Upper West Side, Miami Beach and the rest are all nice enough places to live. This whole Israel thing is going to cause a big damn war one day. It is unnecessary.
Last edited by mises on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Are American Jews under threat of persecution, are European ones? |
Do they live in a tiny country surrounded by millions of hostile Muslims who wish for their destruction? |
Exactly, we agree. The Israel state has not made Jews safer, but rather the opposite. Jews have historically been prosecuted, but in present time that is not happening on a significant scale except in the Middle East and I would argue that is more based on Anti-Zionism than antisemitism. If anything they made it more dangerous for the Jews who have historically lived in middle eastern countries. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| It's a nation based entirely on the idea of a homeland for one specific ethnic group. |
You mean like Japan, Korea, Finland, and Poland? You sound like you have just discovered the concept of the nation state. |
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