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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| The Arabs just need to be patient. In the near future when Americans are standing in soup lines while foreign Jews pound their fists on the table demanding more billions of dollars and military equipment, we won't be able to give it to them no matter how subservient we are. You can only get so much milk out of a cow. The Israelis are spoiled. When they finally have to become self-sufficient, they won't know how and they'll be easily overrun. They'll be as confused as some of these inner city welfare queens when the food stamp program runs out of funding. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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This is how the IDF handled a Nobel Prize winner the last time. Again, they just smoothed it over and created fabricated stories about "seeing guns".
Makes one really wonder how the Israeli govt can lie so much . That above all really grabs me, the bold facedness of lie upon lie. And people buy it. I guess it is the Goering philosophy of telling one so unbelievable, everyone will think it must be true. But it is these lies that have turned me from one supporting Israel's right to pursue her security to one not trusting anything about their intentions or aims or actions.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
This DEBKA story is convenient:
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/06/08/Bin-Laden-said-to-be-in-Iran/UPI-68711276014380/
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JERUSALEM, June 8 (UPI) -- Osama bin Laden and his top aides are hiding in a mountainous town in northeastern Iran and Turkey knows it, intelligence sources said Tuesday.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is aware that bin Laden, his chief lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahiri and five other high-ranking al-Qaida leaders have been living under Tehran's protection for the past five years, military intelligence Web site Debkafile reports.
The leak that Erdogan is aware of bin Laden's location is intended to show the Obama administration the extent of Erdogan's ties to Iran, Debkafile says.
The location of the al-Qaida leader was pinned down by a Kuwaiti newspaper that identified Sabzevar as the town where bin Laden has been hiding.
The remote town of about 250,000 residents is difficult to access because of mountains and a salt desert, Debkafile says.
Until recently, the al-Qaida leader was believed to be in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region. |
Sure he is. |
Hey, it worked with Iraq. Why abandon a perfectly good pretext? And for good measure, they are also playing up Iran's WMDs they don't really have either.
Does anyone else see a pattern here? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
This DEBKA story is convenient:
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/06/08/Bin-Laden-said-to-be-in-Iran/UPI-68711276014380/
| Quote: |
JERUSALEM, June 8 (UPI) -- Osama bin Laden and his top aides are hiding in a mountainous town in northeastern Iran and Turkey knows it, intelligence sources said Tuesday.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is aware that bin Laden, his chief lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahiri and five other high-ranking al-Qaida leaders have been living under Tehran's protection for the past five years, military intelligence Web site Debkafile reports.
The leak that Erdogan is aware of bin Laden's location is intended to show the Obama administration the extent of Erdogan's ties to Iran, Debkafile says.
The location of the al-Qaida leader was pinned down by a Kuwaiti newspaper that identified Sabzevar as the town where bin Laden has been hiding.
The remote town of about 250,000 residents is difficult to access because of mountains and a salt desert, Debkafile says.
Until recently, the al-Qaida leader was believed to be in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region. |
Sure he is. |
Hey, it worked with Iraq. Why abandon a perfectly good pretext? And for good measure, they are also playing up Iran's WMDs they don't really have either.
Does anyone else see a pattern here? |
Maybe Turkey will one day have hidden WMD's too. The order: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran ...... Turkey? I always assumed Syria. The neo-cons hate Turkey now, so.. They're a fickle bunch. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of
New footage. |
Conveniently, no footage of the boarding -- only the aftermath. In other words, this is only good for propaganda as it does not disprove the IDF video evidence, nor does it support the claims by the "protestors" that they did not attack Israeli soldiers (despite obvious video evidence to the contrary). The Israelis could cut the video, but they can't add to it, and the hostility was blatant.
This is just another howling voice in the wilderness that blames Israel for their stupidity. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
1. Can't something be peaceful and not be a humanitarian mission? I doubt missions carrying noble peace winners and political leaders are terrorists.
.2 What does this have to do with Hamas? Israels actions towards Gaza clearly show that they do not believe in Gaza's right to exist. Israel is trying to destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and starve the populace. West Bank and Gaza are two separate situations.
3. Double standard. The majority of the international community believes that Israel is guilty of war crimes on numerous occasions. The only reason actions haven't been taken is due to it's U.S. Patronage. |
1. Yes it can...however as the spokeswoman herself said, this was not intended to be peaceful at all. Did you read the article that was linked (first post in the thread)? Their goal was to shatter the blockade. And as for being peaceful...attacking soldiers that land on your deck is not the act of a peaceful mission. And it wasn't just a few people, it required several hours of hand to hand fighting to bring the ship under control.
As for the Noble prize winners and political leaders...there were six ships in the flotilla. Five of them followed instructions and no one was shot or hurt. The last ship did not.
2. Israel is trying to drive out Hamas. It has nothing to do with your alleged claim that Israel thinks that Gaza shouldn't exist. If that were true, they'd just take it over and expel the Palestinians to the West Bank. Sorry but facts don't agree with you here.
3. Link to any polls which show this majority?
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
[q
TUM, the only reason to have any dialogue with you is for its entertainment value. So I guess I'm not really addressing you below, because it's beyond your ability to grasp. . |
Likewise BB, likewise. And I noticed you still haven't addressed my link above which shows clearly that the West Bank is doing much better than Gaza.
But that's to be expected as it proves beyond a doubt that your claim that the West Bank is barely better than Gaza is rubbish.
Unless of course you wish to attempt to maintain that you are a more reliable source then the sources I listed in support of my link.  |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
1. Can't something be peaceful and not be a humanitarian mission? I doubt missions carrying noble peace winners and political leaders are terrorists.
.2 What does this have to do with Hamas? Israels actions towards Gaza clearly show that they do not believe in Gaza's right to exist. Israel is trying to destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and starve the populace. West Bank and Gaza are two separate situations.
3. Double standard. The majority of the international community believes that Israel is guilty of war crimes on numerous occasions. The only reason actions haven't been taken is due to it's U.S. Patronage. |
1. Yes it can...however as the spokeswoman herself said, this was not intended to be peaceful at all. Did you read the article that was linked (first post in the thread)? Their goal was to shatter the blockade. And as for being peaceful...attacking soldiers that land on your deck is not the act of a peaceful mission. And it wasn't just a few people, it required several hours of hand to hand fighting to bring the ship under control.
As for the Noble prize winners and political leaders...there were six ships in the flotilla. Five of them followed instructions and no one was shot or hurt. The last ship did not.
Did we read the same article? Here is what the spokesperson said.
"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"
Where does she say it's not intended to peaceful. It was a protest action, but i doubt violence was premeditated, at least at an organizational level.
As to how many people were involved in the attack, well it was several people but the exact sequence is impossible to say so no point in arguing that until more information is available.
2. Israel is trying to drive out Hamas. It has nothing to do with your alleged claim that Israel thinks that Gaza shouldn't exist. If that were true, they'd just take it over and expel the Palestinians to the West Bank. Sorry but facts don't agree with you here.
Israel knows it can't drive the people from Gaza out to the West Bank. They can get away with a lot, but I doubt even the United States would support them after that. How long has the peace process been going on? If Israel legitimately wanted to grant Gaza state hood it could have by now, and then who knows if Hamas would have even been created. Israel isn't interested in meeting the basic conditions of peace. Israel has been systematically destroying Gaza's infra-structure and cutting off supplies to Gaza. Israel created the conditions that created Hamas.
3. Link to any polls which show this majority? |
[b] Polls? I had to laugh at that. This is common knowledge.
From the article you mentioned.
"Israel's international image had already taken a beating from allegations that it committed war crimes during its 2008-2009 winter war in Gaza, and from widespread global opposition to the blockade. Hamas was also accused of rights violations in that conflict."
How about UN resolutions
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), "determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination". The resolution is often referenced in debates of Zionism and racism.
Thats right the majority of the countries in 1975 voted that to be Zionist was to be racist. In interest of disclosure it was overturned in 1991, but the fact that it was passed at all says a lot.
Security council resolutions that condemn Israel
Resolution 111- 1956
Resolution 171- 1962
Resolution 228- 1966
Resolution 237, 240, 248,
OK I'm not committed enough to list all the resolutions that condemn Israel because it would take quite awhile. Suffice to say it's a lot and is an ongoing issue.
Also in the UN Israel was barred from entering the Asia regional group since 1961.
Also
"In 2003, the Israeli West Bank barrier became another subject of criticism. It was declared illegal by both the GA (resolution ES-10/13) and the International Court of Justice. The ICJ clarified that it is the location of the barrier, outside of the green line, that violates international law."
"In 2007, Israel was the subject of 76% of country-specific GA resolutions, 36% of resolutions from the Human Rights Council and 7% of the Security Council resolutions."
Israel has had more UN Resolutions condemning it than any other nation. The second country is not even close.
The UN general assembly also ratified the fact finding mission after Israel invaded Gaza that said this
" "that serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel in the context of its military operations in Gaza from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity."
So clearly the majority of the countries in the world consider Israel to have committed war crimes several times, and at the very least it is one of the least popular countries in the world.
If you would actually like to learn about this in depth so you would know what you're talking about I would recommend reading this.
The Israel Palestine Conflict by James Gelvin
Don't worry it's fair and balanced, it's what we used in my university class on the conflict. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[q
Did we read the same article? Here is what the spokesperson said.
"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"
Where does she say it's not intended to peaceful. It was a protest action, but i doubt violence was premeditated, at least at an organizational level.
As to how many people were involved in the attack, well it was several people but the exact sequence is impossible to say so no point in arguing that until more information is available.
2
Israel has been systematically destroying Gaza's infra-structure and cutting off supplies to Gaza. Israel created the conditions that created Hamas.
|
The spokeswoman said that the goal was to shatter the blockade. And you don't bring weapons along on a peace mission, nor do you attack people.
As for Israel destroying the infra-structure and cutting off supplies those were done AFTER Hamas was created, not before. What was that you were saying about knowing what you were talking about?
As for the UN it's a corrupt and useless organization. The majority of those votes against Israel were Arab countries or countries that got the majority of their energy from Arab countries. Hardly a fair or unbiased resolution. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Onwards and upwards:
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/with-us-mood-turning-israel-lobbyist-urges-approach-to-russia-we-share-values.html
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=177766
| Quote: |
The pro-Israel community must internalize... new realities... we must adapt and change the way we do business. We as a community continue doing things right, but are not doing the right things. Our strategies are outdated, akin to shining the chrome on a broken model-T instead of getting a new car to take us where we need to go.
Unfortunately, some in the pro-Israel community still want to use the models that do not work in the new order. Some pray for an Obama defeat that will bring back the old order. But no matter who wins elections, it is not coming back....
Importantly, Russia is already warm to Israel � a country with more than one million Russian speakers, significant shared values and many business ties. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[q
Did we read the same article? Here is what the spokesperson said.
"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"
Where does she say it's not intended to peaceful. It was a protest action, but i doubt violence was premeditated, at least at an organizational level.
As to how many people were involved in the attack, well it was several people but the exact sequence is impossible to say so no point in arguing that until more information is available.
2
Israel has been systematically destroying Gaza's infra-structure and cutting off supplies to Gaza. Israel created the conditions that created Hamas.
|
The spokeswoman said that the goal was to shatter the blockade. And you don't bring weapons along on a peace mission, nor do you attack people.
The weapons were improvised. If it was a military ship it would have brought guns. Did it end up peacefully? no. Was it a serious military threat, obviously not. Israel obviously didn't think so either, otherwise it wouldn't have used paint ball guns.
As for Israel destroying the infra-structure and cutting off supplies those were done AFTER Hamas was created, not before. What was that you were saying about knowing what you were talking about?
Israel was the occupying power until 2005. You don't occupy a territory that long if you think it has the right to exist independently. Even after it moved it's troops out of Gaza it still controlled the borders which had an obvious effect on the Gaza economy. Israel was destroying Gaza infrastructure as early as 2000 and 2001 such as it's harbor and airport and caused a sharp drop in it's GDP.
As for the UN it's a corrupt and useless organization. The majority of those votes against Israel were Arab countries or countries that got the majority of their energy from Arab countries. Hardly a fair or unbiased resolution. |
Thats your opinion. The fact remains that the majority of countries in the world believe Israel committed war crimes.
If you need proof beyond what the majority of world leaders think heres what a BBC poll found.
"On average, 56 percent have a mainly negative view of the country, and just 17 percent have a positive view, the least positive rating for any country evaluated. In 23 countries the most common view is negative, with only two leaning towards a positive view and two divided.
Unsurprisingly, the most negative views of Israel are found in the predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East, with very large majorities in Lebanon (85%), Egypt (78%), Turkey (76%), and the UAE (73%) having negative views.
Large majorities also have negative views in Europe, including Germany (77%), Greece (68%) and France (66%). Indonesia (71%), Australia (68%) and South Korea (62%) are the most negative countries in the Asia/Pacific region. Brazilians (72%) are the most negative in Latin America.
The two countries that tend to view Israel positively do so in modest numbers. Forty-five percent of Nigerians and 41 percent of Americans have positive views of Israel's influence in the world, while nearly one-third in each country has negative views. The Kenyan and Indian populations have divided views of Israel."
Surely you don't think that the BBC is a biased source? Israel was found to have more a more negative response than Iran and North Korea. ( I feel that Iran and North Korea are both worse by the way.)
Notice these aren't just Muslim countries, but Greece, France, South Korea, Brazil, etc.
The article can be found here http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_bt/325.php?nid=&id=&pnt=325&lb=btvoc
This last article I found is a remarkably ironic piece of Israeli history that I recomend every one read.
"In the summer of 1947 a semi-derelict 200-berth Chesapeake Bay steamer carrying 4,500 Holocaust survivors, renamed the Exodus, set out from France to run the British blockade of Palestine. The survivors had been rotting in displaced persons camps since the end of the war, waiting to find a country that would take them. The organisers of the expedition, the Zionist movement, were operating a policy of illegal immigration as both a humanitarian rescue operation and as a calculated move to politically gerrymander the country's Jewish population. They didn't expect to be able to land, but they knew that the rickety vessel with its pitiful human cargo of refugees would show up the British as cold-hearted colonial masters. The Exodus could equally have been called End of Empire.
As the ship approached Haifa, the commander received a radio signal from the Zionist leadership not to risk the lives of the passengers by a confrontation. But the incalcitrant Polish captain refused to turn back. Hemmed in by three British destroyers, the crew and passengers found themselves boarded, and retaliated with whatever weapons came to hand � a consignment of cans of kosher corned beef. The British killed three people, one bludgeoned to death by a rifle butt in the face. A few days later the passengers were transferred to another ship and sailed back to Germany, back to the refugee camps, under withering press headlines: "Return to the death land," read one." |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| The weapons were improvised. If it was a military ship it would have brought guns. Did it end up peacefully? no. Was it a serious military threat, obviously not. Israel obviously didn't think so either, otherwise it wouldn't have used paint ball guns. |
Not a military ship, a martyr ship, an instrument of provocation to turn the world (and Turkish voters especially) against Israel (and moderate, secular candidates in Turkey). (Consider it no small coincidence that the Turkish government was so quick to become involved from beginning to end -- first by inspecting the cargo to ensure that there was a maximum amount of outrage, then by condemning Israel despite the illegal activity of smuggling.)
| Quote: |
If you need proof beyond what the majority of world leaders think heres what a BBC poll found.
"On average, 56 percent have a mainly negative view of the country, and just 17 percent have a positive view, the least positive rating for any country evaluated. In 23 countries the most common view is negative, with only two leaning towards a positive view and two divided.
Unsurprisingly, the most negative views of Israel are found in the predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East, with very large majorities in Lebanon (85%), Egypt (78%), Turkey (76%), and the UAE (73%) having negative views.
Large majorities also have negative views in Europe, including Germany (77%), Greece (68%) and France (66%). Indonesia (71%), Australia (68%) and South Korea (62%) are the most negative countries in the Asia/Pacific region. Brazilians (72%) are the most negative in Latin America. |
How the citizens of other countries feel about a place in no way indicates the existence of human rights violations, nor does it affect the case at hand: Whether Israel was wrong to handle the insurgent vessel as they had.
| Quote: |
This last article I found is a remarkably ironic piece of Israeli history that I recomend every one read.
"In the summer of 1947 a semi-derelict 200-berth Chesapeake Bay steamer carrying 4,500 Holocaust survivors, renamed the Exodus, set out from France to run the British blockade of Palestine. The survivors had been rotting in displaced persons camps since the end of the war, waiting to find a country that would take them. The organisers of the expedition, the Zionist movement, were operating a policy of illegal immigration as both a humanitarian rescue operation and as a calculated move to politically gerrymander the country's Jewish population. They didn't expect to be able to land, but they knew that the rickety vessel with its pitiful human cargo of refugees would show up the British as cold-hearted colonial masters. The Exodus could equally have been called End of Empire.
As the ship approached Haifa, the commander received a radio signal from the Zionist leadership not to risk the lives of the passengers by a confrontation. But the incalcitrant Polish captain refused to turn back. Hemmed in by three British destroyers, the crew and passengers found themselves boarded, and retaliated with whatever weapons came to hand � a consignment of cans of kosher corned beef. The British killed three people, one bludgeoned to death by a rifle butt in the face. A few days later the passengers were transferred to another ship and sailed back to Germany, back to the refugee camps, under withering press headlines: "Return to the death land," read one." |
The movie was pretty good, too. However, the Exodus was not a ship of provocation. It was launched with the genuine interest of transporting people to Judea.
Had the British offered the Exodus a safe harbor with a guarantee of emigration for the Jews on board, you had better believe the Exodus would have put full steam to getting there.
Israel gave the Turkish ships that opportunity. All but one accepted and peacefully transferred their cargo. One did not, and it did so intentionally.
Last edited by .38 Special on Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hack
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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The term �international waters� has instantly become the refuge of the usual liberal suspects. I guess they feel it�s a sort of maritime sanctuary where terrorists are immune to the law.
The maritime blockade is a result of the war between Israel and Hamas. Ones political position on that ongoing war is completely irrelevant to the reality that the maritime blockade was established. Knowledge of the maritime blockade by the protesters is also not in debate, and neither is knowledge the flotilla intended to violate the blockade � they made this clear themselves in the press. Once the flotilla made it clear in the press they intended to run the maritime blockade, according to international law, and even US law, the flotilla was considered to be in breach by attempting to violate the blockade.
Perhaps Israel should have let the love ship enter their waters and then used a torpedo instead of a boarding party. That they didn�t shows a strong determination to avoid fatalities and the subsequent �Peaceful World Condemns� mantra. By intercepting the �flotilla� in international waters, they were doing their best to avoid confrontation by extending an ill-deserved courtesy to the Hamasniks of the choice to turn back before things got ugly. Alas, the lure of 72 virgins proved to strong for their noble natures, and they forced Israel�s hand� |
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