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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| our grandparents ran around freely |
Walked around briskly, at best. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
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No, I don't hate Israel. Rather I hate seeing people like you tripping over yourselves to defend the indefensible. . |
Forgot what this thread was about then?
So defending the soldiers who showed restraint and did not shoot the kids is "indefensible" then?
Of course not, so what are you on about?
Let me spell it out for you. We expect soldiers from an advanced nation to not shoot kids even if they are taunted. This is not news. Nothing to talk about then.
However parents letting their kids go and antagonize armed men is beyond the pale. It's hard to think of any other country that does that. That is strange. That is news and should be discussed. Particularly in the absence of any other Palestinians criticizing said parents. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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If the article is to be believed than this is actually the important part.
"During Friday�s protest in Nabi Saleh, orders could be heard blaring from soldiers� radios to photograph some of the older (read: over 10 years old) boys participating in the protest. The photos are used to identify targets for night raids, when soldiers enter the village under cover of darkness, burst into homes and grab the young children and adolescent boys comprising the village�s shabab from their beds.
According to Lymor Goldstein, a lawyer who represents many of the Ni�ilin residents detained for joining protests, the arrested youth are immediately subjected to psychological torture by the Shabak: they are held in total darkness, fed at odd hours, threatened, and interrogated as soon as they become sufficiently scared and disoriented. "They don�t really need to beat them," Goldstein told me during a demonstration in Niilin. "The psychological torture is so intense that almost no one can resist it." (Goldstein confided to me that he was having trouble recalling specific names because of a rubber bullet that pierced his skull during a protest in the village of Bil�in in 2006, causing long term damage to his vision and memory. Video of the Israeli Border Police shooting Goldstein is here.)"
The adults with the children were incredibly irresponsible. That said did I think they needed to be hauled away in a van by the soldiers, probably not. I'd say the bit from the article Bacasper posted doesn't really convey what happened, and that to get a better understanding you should watch the video. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
"During Friday�s protest in Nabi Saleh, orders could be heard blaring from soldiers� radios to photograph some of the older (read: over 10 years old) boys participating in the protest. The photos are used to identify targets for night raids, when soldiers enter the village under cover of darkness, burst into homes and grab the young children and adolescent boys comprising the village�s shabab from their beds.
According to Lymor Goldstein, a lawyer who represents many of the Ni�ilin residents detained for joining protests, the arrested youth are immediately subjected to psychological torture by the Shabak: they are held in total darkness, fed at odd hours, threatened, and interrogated as soon as they become sufficiently scared and disoriented. "They don�t really need to beat them," Goldstein told me during a demonstration in Niilin. "The psychological torture is so intense that almost no one can resist it." (Goldstein confided to me that he was having trouble recalling specific names because of a rubber bullet that pierced his skull during a protest in the village of Bil�in in 2006, causing long term damage to his vision and memory. Video of the Israeli Border Police shooting Goldstein is here.)" |
Well, if they're genuinely locking up 10 year old boys in total darkness and mistreating them, that's unacceptable, regardless of what the children might have done. Given he came up with an excuse to avoid having to name specific children who have gone through that (when he surely should have had the information in written format, thus removing memory from the process), I'm not sure we can simply accept that as true, though. I'm not saying it's not true, I'd just need more proof than some guy who can't name a single example saying it happens. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
"During Friday�s protest in Nabi Saleh, orders could be heard blaring from soldiers� radios to photograph some of the older (read: over 10 years old) boys participating in the protest. The photos are used to identify targets for night raids, when soldiers enter the village under cover of darkness, burst into homes and grab the young children and adolescent boys comprising the village�s shabab from their beds.
According to Lymor Goldstein, a lawyer who represents many of the Ni�ilin residents detained for joining protests, the arrested youth are immediately subjected to psychological torture by the Shabak: they are held in total darkness, fed at odd hours, threatened, and interrogated as soon as they become sufficiently scared and disoriented. "They don�t really need to beat them," Goldstein told me during a demonstration in Niilin. "The psychological torture is so intense that almost no one can resist it." (Goldstein confided to me that he was having trouble recalling specific names because of a rubber bullet that pierced his skull during a protest in the village of Bil�in in 2006, causing long term damage to his vision and memory. Video of the Israeli Border Police shooting Goldstein is here.)" |
Well, if they're genuinely locking up 10 year old boys in total darkness and mistreating them, that's unacceptable, regardless of what the children might have done. Given he came up with an excuse to avoid having to name specific children who have gone through that (when he surely should have had the information in written format, thus removing memory from the process), I'm not sure we can simply accept that as true, though. I'm not saying it's not true, I'd just need more proof than some guy who can't name a single example saying it happens. |
Agreed...although I'd go a step further and say I'd need more proof than some guy who says it happens.
And a good point about the lawyer. Specific names and specific dates as well should be written down. Granted I'm no lawyer but that seems the most basic data to gather prior to bringing a lawsuit, court case or inquiry. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Mark Steyn?
Anyway, he's talking about the conflict versus Hezbollah, a clear aggressor, which is arguably a much different matter than the Israeli-Hamas conflict or the IDF patrolling the West Bank. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Hmmm...well then, re-read the article. See especially the Eric Hoffer quotation if you think this was only related to Israel-Hezbollah, in recent times. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I hold Israel to higher standards for several reasons.
1. Biggest recipient of American Aid. Despite this they openly snub the United States without fear of repercussion. I want something for my countries money, not disrespect and false promises. Unveiling plans for new settlements when our vice president is there for a visit, I mean come on.
2. They present a unique security threat. It is no secret that Israel is one of the most jingoistic countries in the world, or that they are in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the world. They openly attack and threaten their neighbors. They provide an easy rallying cry for recruiters for terrorist organizations. They often act unilaterally and pre-emptively. If they make a mistake, liking bombing Iran, it will have consequences for every one.
3. Human rights and war crimes. Not saying that Hamas and Hezbollah do a great job of this either, but I hold them to different standards because they are openly militant groups whereas Israel is supposed to be a liberal democracy. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm...so you aren't saying you're an "Israeli hater", are you? 
1. Israeli "openly snubs the U.S. ...". Need a hell of a lot more specific, concrete examples to support that assertion. And it's obvious you don't remember the First Gulf War.
2. Oh, it's ISRAEL that poses the "unique security threat." !!!!! 
3. It's the last point that is most disturbing, and I've seen this movie before. To excuse anti-Semitic terror groups from horrific acts because they're "militant" (or whatever) while howling when Israel commits acts that don't even register a blip on the same radar screen is the type of moral relativism that has been a pimple on a carbuncle of mankind going back to at least the Fr. Rev. I grew up with too many types who, when confronted with Communist atrocities, went through a routine more or less like this: 1) denial 2) cautious admission, but saying the figures are exaggerated, the US is far worse, etc., etc. 3) OK, people died /suffered due to state policy by the USSR, China, etc. but they were "under threat", "building a society for future justice", yada, yada....
Very similar sentiments coming from the anti-Israeli crowds....
Can you imagine if even one of those kids was merely pushed to the ground and got a scraped elbow?! Hypocrisy unleashed as howls for Israeli blood would fill the airwaves...and these forums, no doubt.... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| Hmmm...so you aren't saying you're an "Israeli hater", are you? |
No, just that I hold them to a higher standard.
| Mosley wrote: |
| 1. Israeli "openly snubs the U.S. ...". Need a hell of a lot more specific, concrete examples to support that assertion. And it's obvious you don't remember the First Gulf War. |
Did you see the part where I mentioned Israel announcing new settlements the day our vice president came to visit?
| Mosley wrote: |
| 2. Oh, it's ISRAEL that poses the "unique security threat." !!!!! |
Yeah man, and I'd like to know why you think it's funny. I don't find Israeli aggression in the middle east to be a laughing matter. They are one of the most jingoistic countries in the world in one of the most delicate places in the world.
| Mosley wrote: |
3. It's the last point that is most disturbing, and I've seen this movie before. To excuse anti-Semitic terror groups from horrific acts because they're "militant" (or whatever) while howling when Israel commits acts that don't even register a blip on the same radar screen is the type of moral relativism that has been a pimple on a carbuncle of mankind going back to at least the Fr. Rev. I grew up with too many types who, when confronted with Communist atrocities, went through a routine more or less like this: 1) denial 2) cautious admission, but saying the figures are exaggerated, the US is far worse, etc., etc. 3) OK, people died /suffered due to state policy by the USSR, China, etc. but they were "under threat", "building a society for future justice", yada, yada....
Very similar sentiments coming from the anti-Israeli crowds....
Can you imagine if even one of those kids was merely pushed to the ground and got a scraped elbow?! Hypocrisy unleashed as howls for Israeli blood would fill the airwaves...and these forums, no doubt.... |
You seemed to miss what I was saying. I don't hold militant groups to any sort of standards because they are doing what I would expect them to. I don't think that what they are doing is right. I hold countries to higher standards then I do criminal groups, and I hold countries that purport to be liberal democracies to the highest standards. Most of the actions by the militant groups towards Israel are flat out wrong. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
Hmmm...so you aren't saying you're an "Israeli hater", are you?
. . .
Very similar sentiments coming from the anti-Israeli crowds.... |
The problem with your argument is that it doesn't seem to allow for someone neutral towards Israel to come to the conclusion that Israel should be criticized for something. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
I hold Israel to higher standards for several reasons.
1. Biggest recipient of American Aid. Despite this they openly snub the United States without fear of repercussion. I want something for my countries money, not disrespect and false promises. Unveiling plans for new settlements when our vice president is there for a visit, I mean come on.
2. They present a unique security threat. It is no secret that Israel is one of the most jingoistic countries in the world, or that they are in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the world. They openly attack and threaten their neighbors. They provide an easy rallying cry for recruiters for terrorist organizations. They often act unilaterally and pre-emptively. If they make a mistake, liking bombing Iran, it will have consequences for every one.
3. Human rights and war crimes. Not saying that Hamas and Hezbollah do a great job of this either, but I hold them to different standards because they are openly militant groups whereas Israel is supposed to be a liberal democracy. |
1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...the amount of money/aid that is pumped into Iraq and Afghanistan* exceeds theirs.
Iraq alone exceeds Israel's aid by a factor of about eight.
2. Israel is surrounded by jingoist neighbors. It has to be and act jingoist in order not to be seen as weak and open to attack. Its neighbors attacked it at its founding and afterwards.
3. Holding other groups to different standards is disingenuous in this case. Hamas is supposed to be a democratically elected group...isn't that one of the reasons why people are bashing Israel for invading Gaza and not recognizing a government which was democratically elected? Can't have your cake and eat it too I'm afraid.
*Includes military aid for Afghanistan (estimated at $73 billion) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...not even close. Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
Hmm, according to this, it looks like Iraq and Afghanistan technically receive more money than Israel, but I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that we invaded those nations and continue to maintain a military presence on them. Other than those two, it looks like Israel is at the top. As such, whether Leon's point is considered accurate or not would be determined by whether or not you considered our spending on Iraq and Afghanistan to be normal foreign aid or not.
Another point I feel worth mentioning is that Egypt also receives a huge amount of American aid; not as much as Israel, but still a huge amount. None the less, that doesn't seem to drive Israel's opponents into a similar fury about Egypt. I strongly feel that, generally speaking, the "foreign aid argument" is a justification rather than a reason for opposition to Israel. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...not even close. Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
Hmm, according to this, it looks like Iraq and Afghanistan technically receive more money than Israel, but I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that we invaded those nations and continue to maintain a military presence on them. Other than those two, it looks like Israel is at the top. As such, whether Leon's point is considered accurate or not would be determined by whether or not you considered our spending on Iraq and Afghanistan to be normal foreign aid or not.
Another point I feel worth mentioning is that Egypt also receives a huge amount of American aid; not as much as Israel, but still a huge amount. None the less, that doesn't seem to drive Israel's opponents into a similar fury about Egypt. I strongly feel that, generally speaking, the "foreign aid argument" is a justification rather than a reason for opposition to Israel. |
True...but Mr. Leon didn't specify "normal foreign aid" he just said "aid" As such both Iraq and Afghanistan beat Israel out by a country mile. Israel is not even close to those two. Besides which the majority of the aid Israel gets from the U.S is military in nature...hardly "normal foreign aid"
As regards your second point I agree.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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