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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| How many hakwon jobs paid you your proper pension |
| All |
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28% |
[ 8 ] |
| Most (please explain below) |
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10% |
[ 3 ] |
| Some (please explain below) |
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25% |
[ 7 ] |
| None |
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35% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 28 |
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Message |
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
My first hagwon was so long ago, I don't even know, but with all the other financial shenanigans he pulled before I ran, I suspect not.
The next one didn't, but I didn't realize it until years later. Got NHIC, though.
The final one did. NPS, NHIC, the whole dealio.
Switching over to uni, one REFUSED to pay into both NPS and NHIC, so we filed complaints and the respective boards fined him into hock. Got my money in the end.
Current uni pays into everything.
So in 14 years,
3/5 for pension
3/5 for insurance (only the unis were obligated to provide it under the law; the hagwons were all pre-2006) |
Just my point.
Current employers are likely to follow the law much more than in the past, plus, you have learned what to look for. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting Poll |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
* Independent contractors are legally and properly not enrolled by the school.
[...]
Finally, of course, many people in years past found themselves without pension in job after job just because they were incompetent when it came to job search and contract analysis. So, we would expect such people to show up as "never." |
I get the feeling you believe yourself not to be among the unwashed "incompetent" as you put it, so you must have been an expert in Korean labor, pension, and tax laws before you signed your first contract, right? You knew what an independent contractor was and what it entailed and how it differed from a simple employee? You knew who was exempt from NHIC and pension and all the the other nitty gritty details all those other "incompetent" people got screwed on, including when those laws changed and what the changes entailed, right?
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Actually, yes.
I have decades of experience in private and public accounting with quite a variety of firms, including: contracts, contract negotiations, contract enforcement and legal action, IRS negotiations and specifically, a specialty nitch in "independent contractors."
(It is important to know, for example, that even when rules change for the tax treatment of workers which may cause new workers at new firms to classify certain workers as employees, some firms can be granfathered in legally and allowed to continue to record both continuing and new workers as independent contractors.
This is part of the nogotiating process, is a matter of policy under the tax authority and is not within the perview of the immigration or labor authorities. This can occur while still other firms are pressured or forced to give up the same tax treatment option due to weakness in negotiating position, lack of proper representation or legal vulnerabilities leading to the surrender of such rights in a swap.
Which means, you have to be aware that there are private rulings and private letter rulings that make certain things legal even when reading the law would make it seem that they are not. Being private means they are closely guarded, almost secret but legal rulings. If you claim that such people are breaking the law, and they are not due to the private rulings, you could be charged with slander or libel, even though you thought you were familiar with some labor law you read somewhere.)
Tax rules are always changing. Immigration and labor offices do not get to make them. There are large firms that have to hire a librarian to manage their tax law library just to open and file the new laws, changes in tax rules, court rules and legal opinions that come in on a daily basis, so no one can keep up and no one knows all. There is no human being alive who "knows" even just the US Income tax laws - it is impossible, let alone all the other significant countries in the world.
However, the basic principles have remained unchanged, and if you study contract law, accounting, taxes, etc. you will at least be versed in these basic principles.
There is a major difference between knowing what is desireable in a contract and knowing what may or may not be legal. Advising or recognizing the former is quite elementary, the latter is quite problematic, hence the constant errors by posters on Dave's attempting to advise.
Further, as to this comment:
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| I get the feeling you believe yourself not to be among the unwashed "incompetent" as you put it, so you must have been an expert in Korean labor, pension, and tax laws before you signed your first contract, right? |
You are upset at this:
| Quote: |
| people in years past found themselves without pension in job after job just because they were incompetent when it came to job search and contract analysis |
where my point was aimed at the whiners who are pretending to be experts and who managed to never get pension, when others got pension in every contract and job.
If those "experts" knew anything beyond the sound of their own gums flapping, they would have managed to get pension eventually, since the majority of hogwans has always provided it. Yet they claim that they never got it. No doubt true, but it means they are incompetent.
Sure, few people, and especially very few teachers, have any contract or accounting experience and likely no independent contractor experience. But, most can learn enough after the first job or two to get pension included in the next. However, those whining "experts" failed in every attempt, as did apparently, 100% of the friends of one of the expert whiners - so yes, they are incompetent to negotiate and incompetent to advise.
Those ranting "experts" get people wound up, fill their heads with faulty information, increase the whinging and job troubles and eventual job losses of many Dave's posters as well as those who get the even worse information that floats through the teacher rumor and gossip mills. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
But, schools that refuse to pay pension at all have become quite rare for Korea - 1% to 2%. |
Where are you getting this percentage from?
Any actual stats? |
Asked and ignored. I hate to push this because it was another apologist asking you the question, but why can't you give a reply to your bird of a feather? I would have requested the same, but you seem cling to your 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' responses when asked for actual evidence. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: |
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As I posted on a different thread,I find it difficult to believe that only 1%~2% of hogwons in Korea refuse to pay pension. I would think it would be at least 15%+. However, I don't actually know.
That being, I do know 2 foreigners at different hogwons who aren't getting pension. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
As I posted on a different thread,I find it difficult to believe that only 1%~2% of hogwons in Korea refuse to pay pension. I would think it would be at least 15%+. However, I don't actually know.
That being, I do know 2 foreigners at different hogwons who aren't getting pension. |
If any recruiter told me that it was only 1-2%, I would drop that recruiter like a hot potato.
Anyone who would post such nonsense as 1-2%, I would claim that person as to be lacking of credibility. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
But, schools that refuse to pay pension at all have become quite rare for Korea - 1% to 2%. |
Where are you getting this percentage from?
Any actual stats? |
Asked and ignored. I hate to push this because it was another apologist asking you the question, but why can't you give a reply to your bird of a feather? I would have requested the same, but you seem cling to your 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' responses when asked for actual evidence. |
He didn't calculate anything. It's just his impression. He mentioned the exact same thing on another thread.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2419898&highlight=#2419898
He goes on about how someone MIGHT be able to calculate this but doesn't actually do any of the math himself. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Agreed, so if dave's is full of myths and misinformation, how can he claim those numbers to be accurate enough for his own calculations?
Still breathlessly awaiting his response....... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| OculisOrbis wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
But, schools that refuse to pay pension at all have become quite rare for Korea - 1% to 2%. |
Where are you getting this percentage from?
Any actual stats? |
Asked and ignored. I hate to push this because it was another apologist asking you the question, but why can't you give a reply to your bird of a feather? I would have requested the same, but you seem cling to your 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' responses when asked for actual evidence. |
JFYI I am not an apologist for the hakwons. In fact on the contract sticky thread alone I have spelled out the dirty tricks some/most hakwons pull on their employees many MANY times. Hakwon owners are like used car salesmen. Sure there are honest ones among the lot, but they are likely to be in the minority. My view of them can be summed up in this old joke.
Q: How can you tell when a hakwon owner is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
As for OTW, yes the poll may be somewhat flawed...however it still makes the point that people are more likely than not to be screwed over when it comes to dealing with hakwons. Whether or not it comes from their own ignorance...it still doesn't make it right. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, sorry TUM. That was a bit of a cheap shot towards you. You are, at worst, a moderate apologist - the cape only goes on to defend korea from generalities. You are quite rational when it comes to most employment related issues. I also need to add that I sometimes confuse you with 'PatrickGHBusan', whom I consider as much less moderate in the blind defense of the poor oppressed generalized koreans. |
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