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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Syria has a big problem with human rights. I just checked amnesty intenational's website and there were 4 news bulletins for July of this year alone. Like many Arab countries it also treats the men forced into its military shamefully.
I couldn't care less if they ban the niqab or not. I don't think it will make much of a difference though. It could just turn out to be another symbol for those opposed to the state and actually kind of encourage women to wear it. If it is banned from universities a woman's family could just prevent her from going if she can't wear it. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books. |
That may be all as far as national bans, but I think it's worth noting that Belgium and Germany both have local bans, and that a national ban is pending in Belgium's legislative system. |
In Belgium, they are contemplating a ban on face veils, not the hijab or head-covering. Generally, at issue is not the hijab except in France and Turkey, generally. People are having trouble with the burqa, niqab or face veil.
The face veil is an unfortunate Saudi export. They used those billions they gained from the West to spread to more moderate Muslim countries the niqab, and Syria has responded by banning it in many important spheres of the country, and France has banned it completely. Wahhabism by the way didn't necessarily dominate Saudi Arabia until the pro-British
Sauds made an alliance with the Wahhabis to gain power, so this mess the West is dealing with is partially its own creation and the Western and Arab masses have suffered from it. Big Verne should keep that in mind. He does make a point that the burqa is connected to an extremely fanatical form of Islam, and he sees the nuances, I will give him that.
Also, French born European women have worn the face veil after marrying some North African Muslims. With this ban, that will be much less likely to happen where a woman covers her face and doesn't interact at all with the people of her own background. That is not healthy for French society or those women, and I don't feel bad if this French law prevents those fanatical type men from being able to have their women wearing a face veil in the name of personal freedom.
En passant, many Muslim French people support the ban, but weren't so convinced about the head-covering issue. Some decades you wouldn't see any North African Muslim wearing a face veil. It was an Arabian Gulf thing. I don't say it to insult Arabian Gulf people. I just don't favor the face veil in being nice. I think the head covering should suffice if the women want to wear it and be pious. It's not part of French culture and historically not really part of North African Muslim culture. It doesn't help people integrate, period. |
I think this is a good summation of the situation. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books. |
That may be all as far as national bans, but I think it's worth noting that Belgium and Germany both have local bans, and that a national ban is pending in Belgium's legislative system. |
In Belgium, they are contemplating a ban on face veils, not the hijab or head-covering. Generally, at issue is not the hijab except in France and Turkey, generally. People are having trouble with the burqa, niqab or face veil. |
Is that also true of the local bans in Belgium and Germany I spoke of? According to sources like this, the local bans in Germany do seem go beyond face veils, and according to this at least some of the local bans in Belgium go beyond face veils as well (in both cases the particular bans spoken of are school-related). Are these sites wrong, or am I somehow misinterpreting them? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| No country has completely banned hijab. Turkey has banned it from public buildings, France has from public schools (as well as those crosses and yamakas you brought up). Those are the only ones I'm aware of that are currently on the books. |
That may be all as far as national bans, but I think it's worth noting that Belgium and Germany both have local bans, and that a national ban is pending in Belgium's legislative system. |
In Belgium, they are contemplating a ban on face veils, not the hijab or head-covering. Generally, at issue is not the hijab except in France and Turkey, generally. People are having trouble with the burqa, niqab or face veil. |
Is that also true of the local bans in Belgium and Germany I spoke of? According to sources like this, the local bans in Germany do seem go beyond face veils, and according to this at least some of the local bans in Belgium go beyond face veils as well (in both cases the particular bans spoken of are school-related). Are these sites wrong, or am I somehow misinterpreting them? |
Thanks for posting those articles. No, you got it right, they are local bans on hijab. Personally, I think a ban on hijab is silly. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| I don't dislike Saudis, I like many of them. |
How do you figure they feel about you? (I presume you're a white Canadian guy)
Serious question, Adventurer, and I make no presumptions (besides my assuming that you are indeed a white Canadian dude).
Just curious. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
| Why are women wearing full face veils going to university in the first place? How many Islamic laws are these women breaking? |
You can say the same thing to Christian women. |
He has a point, though. Your point doesn't work clearly. Christian women don't cover their faces, and Syrian women who cover their hair and generally interact with males on some level are not banned, obviously, and are encouraged to attend the univerities. The women wearing the face veil are viewed as threats to a secular regime. I don't like these veils they are a cultural export from Saudi Arabia, which financed its intepretation of Islam through petro-dollars. I don't dislike Saudis, I like many of them. I don't support veils. It's not part of Syrian culture or history. It doesn't belong there, period. I would also like Saudi Arabia to also become more moderate than it has become. It has started checking the powers of the mullahs. |
I think you missed my point. He said Muslim women are violating their religious law by educating themselves. It was the same for Christian women for a very long time. Actually many Christians still believe that a woman's place is in the kitchen and pumping out babies. It's only very recently in time that secular values in the West have somehow convinced Christians to tone it down a notch or two.
I wasn't talking about the veil but if you are saying it is a threat to a secular 'regime' then it's easy for me to argue that the cross is as well. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I don't dislike Saudis, I like many of them. |
How do you figure they feel about you? (I presume you're a white Canadian guy)
Serious question, Adventurer, and I make no presumptions (besides my assuming that you are indeed a white Canadian dude).
Just curious. |
Sorry, I had to edit this to give this proper thought in terms of the Saudis and their views. Saudi Arabia is a complicated place. It's a Islamic hermit kingdom.
How one looks at Saudi Arabia can depend where they are from and what exposure they've had to Saudi Arabia and what knowledge they have of the area. The Arabs of the Levant who are moderate look down upon the Saudis sometimes as backward Arabian rednecks who are a little extreme, kind of a version of how some liberal New Yorkers who are not religious may look at some people in some parts of the US South who are zealous. Of course, there are major differences between the type of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia and the kind of Christianity practiced in the South, but there are parallels, the country would be so different if Evangelicals seized control and there were so many who thought their way.
Just as any place where religious zealousness is emphasized, there is often this thinking of being better because one is pious. Saudi Arabia holds the holy sites. It's very anti-Shiite. Shiite pilgrims who come from Iran or elsewhere when they pray at holy areas for Shiites in Saudi Arabia are watched by guards. They are not supposed to show much emotion, or they will get a rebuke from the guards. Both Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia and Iran's religious exports are viewed with suspicion in the Levant and Egypt and Morocco. In Saudi Arabia, they dislike Sufism and Shiite thinking.
Saudi Arabians in many cases go crazy when they go abroad and drink like fish. Some will party like crazy, otherwise will not touch a single drink. I have found that in a college town I live in that the Saudis seem to get along and mingle with Westerners. Some can be laid back friends and open and good friends of Westerners. There are those who are very open and somewhat liberal. And there are those who deal with foreigners but have this sort of reserved thing about them. It's hard to describe. Some who have girlfriends can be quite jealous or great boyfriends.
They just cannot marry their Western girlfriends and must break their hearts.
Some of the liberal Saudis want to return home, and some don't from my talking to them. I talked to a liberal Saudi about his wanting to return.
I didn't probe to much about his world views and spiritual views. I could guess. I respect people's privacy, generally. He feels close to family, they have strong family ties. He accepts that he is used to what the kingdom is even if he doesn't agree, but some of the youth want the kingdom to open. Many young Saudi men of 2010 have long hair.
You pretty much woudn't dare so much in 1985. The mullahs would cut your hair.
Saudi Arabia's king wants the kingdom to seem more moderate and modern more than his predecessors. He has weakened the power of the mullahs somewhat. He is trying to standardize religious edicts and he has gone against some of the more extreme elements, and he has shown some clemeny towards some people on death-row, and he has tried to have Saudi Arabia viewed as an Arab leader, and that's why it said it was willing to recognize Israel in exchange for 242 and 338. Saudi Arabia has said that before, I believe, but Saudi Arabia can't be expected to change very much in the near future. I only expect graduate changes.
In conclusion, I would say some Saudis really like their white and black and Hispanic friends. I could tell if they were faking it. Some, of course, may use girls for fun while they go home to Saudi Arabia to get married.
A law was passed in 2007 making it so hard for Saudi men to marry a foreign woman. The government didn't want them choosing to marry women of other nationalities. It's not because all the Saudi men don't want to. I knew of a Saudi guy who was so beside himself because he couldn't marry his Mexican girlfriend and couldn't be with her. He said it would be too hard for them to be together because of the law. It's not impossible to get around it, but it's a hassle. He actually did really like her.
I had zero Saudi Arabian acquaintances before. I didn't know what to expect. What I knew was from the papers, talking to people who lived there, and I've known several who have. I watch news from the kingdom here and there. There are some Saudi Arabians I feel very comfortable around, and some I don't. It may be mutual. Form your own conclusion based on that. My point was I don't like Wahhabism, and the export of Wahhabism. I also think Saudi Arabia at some point should allow Christians a church somewhere in Saudi Arabia. I think the king wouldn't mind, but he is afraid the time is not right, and it would anger some elements in the kingdom. He can't make huge changes. |
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Mariella713
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Covering the entire face never used to be an Islamic custom. The women that do choose to wear a niqab are doing it for personal reasons, not for religious duty, so it should not be viewed as a 'religious right' anyway. When Arabic is translated into another language it loses some of its meaning. If you can read Arabic, you will see that the Quran does not state that women should cover their eyes or face. Definately a case of 'lost in translation'... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Mariella713 wrote: |
| Covering the entire face never used to be an Islamic custom. The women that do choose to wear a niqab are doing it for personal reasons, not for religious duty, so it should not be viewed as a 'religious right' anyway. When Arabic is translated into another language it loses some of its meaning. If you can read Arabic, you will see that the Quran does not state that women should cover their eyes or face. Definately a case of 'lost in translation'... |
The problem is you get interpretations, and some of these women feel religiously that they should do so. Well, sorry, they cannot. It's that simple. Some people argue no one regulates women wearing a tiny skirt. It's different, a woman wearing a tiny skirt still interacts with society, a woman wearing a face veil does not. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| The Arabs of the Levant who are moderate look down upon the Saudis sometimes as backward Arabian rednecks who are a little extreme |
I'm quite certain that these perceptions solely concern the Saudi Royal family rather than Saudis in general. I'm equally certain that Arab snobbery towards the House of Saud is based mostly on jealousy of their phenomenal oil wealth. Certainly, the Royal Family has a history of corruption and much worse but they also provide free healthcare and free education to all Saudis. |
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Skipperoo
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd be interested to see if laws like this will lead towards a loosening of such rules placed on women in such communities, or whether Muslim women will simply be restricted from going to university by their religious community. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| The Arabs of the Levant who are moderate look down upon the Saudis sometimes as backward Arabian rednecks who are a little extreme |
I'm quite certain that these perceptions solely concern the Saudi Royal family rather than Saudis in general. I'm equally certain that Arab snobbery towards the House of Saud is based mostly on jealousy of their phenomenal oil wealth. Certainly, the Royal Family has a history of corruption and much worse but they also provide free healthcare and free education to all Saudis. |
No, it doesn't concern only the Saudi royal family. There are some in the Levant who feel that Saudi Arabia embarasses them. I am not saying all, but some look down on the Saudis. Of course, it goes both ways. Some of the Levantines think they are more educated, more sophisticated.
Of course, yes, there are types who trash the ruling family. That exists, as well. There are problems between Arabs when it comes to prejudice, cultural friction and what not as well as political friction. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| With Syria's glowing human rights record this ban should be at the bottom of the list of things to be concerned about. |
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