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Global Warming: Do you matter?
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Are your actions relevant to environmental degradation/global warming?
Yes
51%
 51%  [ 17 ]
No
48%
 48%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 33

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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:

An eye, for example, is an integrated system with various separate components. If the eye is missing just one of these components..such as the retina.. it cannot function. It needs to be made whole to be of any use.
What good is half an eye in the evolutionary value of things? If the eye had evolved by a series of increments, then all of them (millions of lucky and necesarrily simultaneous mutations) would be non-functioning right up until the final mutation rendered the eye complete.


Another creationist talking point Julius?

Claim CB301:
The eye is too complex to have evolved.


Source:
Brown, Walt, 1995. In the Beginning: Compelling evidence for creation and the Flood. Phoenix, AZ: Center for Scientific Creation, p. 7.
Hitching, Francis, 1982. The Neck of the Giraffe, New York: Meridian, pp. 66-68.

Response:

1. This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

* photosensitive cell
* aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
* an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
* pigment cells forming a small depression
* pigment cells forming a deeper depression
* the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
* muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.

Links:
Lindsay, Don, 1998. How long would the fish eye take to evolve? http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/eye_time.html
References:

1. Darwin, C., 1872. The Origin of Species, 1st Edition. Senate, London, chpt. 6, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter6.html
2. Nilsson, D.-E. and S. Pelger, 1994. A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Biological Sciences, 256: 53-58.

3. Shimeld, Sebastian M. et al. 2005. Urochordate βγ-crystallin and the evolutionary origin of the vertebrate eye lens. Current Biology 15: 1684-1689.

Further Reading:
Dawkins, Richard, 1996. Climbing Mount Improbable, New York: W.W. Norton, chpt. 5.

Land, M. F. and D.-E. Nilsson, 2002. Animal Eyes. Oxford University Press.

Fernald, Russell D. 2006. Casting a genetic light on the evolution of eyes. Science 313: 1914-1918.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html
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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gender changing fish:

http://earthsky.org/biodiversity/how-can-some-fish-change-from-female-to-male
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pangaea



Joined: 20 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gender changing frog:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n9_v137/ai_8784789/
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gender changing humans:
http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

(NOT SURGERY, it's all natural)

(nudity, NSFW)
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal wrote:
Gender changing fish


Pangaea wrote:
Gender changing frog


And chameleons change color!

You don't appear to have a clue about what evolution is btw. Wouldn't you be better sticking to the Lindsey Lohan thread?
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

recessiontime wrote:

Another creationist talking point Julius?


Still unable to articulate your thoughts by yourself?

Quote:
Claim CB301:
The eye is too complex to have evolved.


Response:

1. This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

* photosensitive cell
* aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
* an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
* pigment cells forming a small depression
* pigment cells forming a deeper depression
* the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
* muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.


While it is true that Brown refers to Darwin�s famous quote, he also makes reference to Darwin�s proposed scenario. That said, it is clear that Talk Origins does not understand the argument. It is not that no one can invent a plausible sounding scenario, but that natural processes cannot produce organized complex systems. This is supported by Thermodynamics which, when studied statistically, shows a tendency towards randomness and disorder, particularly when energy is applied randomly.

The invention of a plausible sounding scenario, even with events based on an existing state, does not change this. Any talented science fiction writer can make impossible events sound plausible. As an example here is a description of how a fork can evolve from a round metal rod.

-Round metal rod.
-Flattened metal rod.
-Metal rod flattened more at one end than the other.
-A knife.
-A spatula
-A spatula with a curved up end
-A spatula with a slightly rounded and curved up end.
-A spoon.
-A spork.
-A fork.
Now all of these objects actually exist, and are useful, so based on Talk Origins� rationale it has just been proved that a fork could have naturally evolved from a round metal rod.

Quote:
Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.


Were these genes named before or after the factions of both genes were known? If just one was named after the functions of both genes were known, then evolution was assumed in the naming process and thus it is not evidence of anything.

Even if they were named on the basis of nuclide and/or location similarity, functional similarity would be sufficient to explain the similarity of genes, but it would also be consistent with common decent.


Quote:
Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


The Geoscience Research Institute has commented on this article[1]:

"What is one to make of all this? First, comparing the evolution of the eye to shape changes on a computer screen seems rather far-fetched. The entire project seems closer to an exercise in geometry than in biology. Second, the exercise assumes a functional starting point. Thus it has nothing to do with the origin of the biochemical systems of vision or the requisite neural network. Third, Nilsson and Pelger's computer exercise operates as if each 1% change in morphology can be accounted for by a single gene mutation. They do not consider the effects of pleiotropy, genetic background, or developmental processes. Fourth, an important part of the model relies on the special circumstance of a layer of clear cells covering the "retina." This layer somehow assumes the proper shape of a lens. Fifth, as noted by the authors, several features of the eye remain unaccounted for, such as the iris. Basically, the only result achieved was to show that two light-sensitive surfaces that differ in shape by 1% will have different efficiencies in photoreception, and that an uninterrupted series of 1% improvements is possible. The failure of scientists to produce new structures in selection experiments illustrates the implausibility of Nilsson and Pelger's "just so" story."


And if you walked at a rate of one step per second, you could walk to the Moon in just 42 years.

The point is that such calculations do not make something possible.

This estimate not only assumes that all of the steps are viable, but that none are reversed or made in a different direction. It does not seem to consider the number of genetic changes needed for each step, since it is clear that a 1% change in genetic information at any step would require many bits of �new'�' genetic information. When genetic information is considered it becomes clear that this estimate is extremely low.

Furthermore it does not matter how many steps there are or even how small those steps are; the notion that the information needed to make an eye could result from random mutations violates both Thermodynamics and Information theory.

The problem of evolving an eye or any other complex organ where none existed cannot be solved by inventing plausible sounding scenarios. To make their case Evolutionists need to show that the information needed to make such structures can come form random mutations and a selection process that does not contain the information in any form.

Finally, one thing Talk Origins totally ignores is that for an eye to work it has to be able to send the images to a brain that is capable of accurately interpreting the signals from the eyes so as to form an image in the mind. Furthermore, for any of the eye�s alleged ancestral forms to have any benefit they too need to be plugged into a brain capable of receiving and properly processing the signals. So the entire process is not just getting a camera to see through but the ability to use that camera as well.

[url]http://creationwiki.org/(Talk.Origins)_The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved[/url]
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talkorigins wrote:
* photosensitive cell
* aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
* an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
* pigment cells forming a small depression
* pigment cells forming a deeper depression
* the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
* muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments.


130 years ago when Darwin got the idea that e.g. a fishes eye could become a human's eye, he was speculating about something he knew nothing about. When you know nothing about something, it becomes easier to imagine it happening. When you were 5 years old it was easy to believe the tooth fairy existed, because you had no knowledge of why it might not be possible.


Last edited by nautilus on Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Series of Eyes
How do we see? In the 19th century the anatomy of the eye was known in great detail, and its sophisticated features astounded everyone who was familiar with them. Scientists of the time correctly observed that if a person were so unfortunate as to be missing one of the eye's many integrated features, such as the lens, or iris, or ocular muscles, the inevitable result would be a severe loss of vision or outright blindness. So it was concluded that the eye could only function if it were nearly intact.

Charles Darwin knew about the eye too. In the Origin of Species, Darwin dealt with many objections to his theory of evolution by natural selection. He discussed the problem of the eye in a section of the book appropriately entitled "Organs of extreme perfection and complication." Somehow, for evolution to be believable, Darwin had to convince the public that complex organs could be formed gradually, in a step-by-step process.

He succeeded brilliantly. Cleverly, Darwin didn't try to discover a real pathway that evolution might have used to make the eye. Instead, he pointed to modern animals with different kinds of eyes, ranging from the simple to the complex, and suggested that the evolution of the human eye might have involved similar organs as intermediates.

Here is a paraphrase of Darwin's argument. Although humans have complex camera-type eyes, many animals get by with less. Some tiny creatures have just a simple group of pigmented cells, or not much more than a light sensitive spot. That simple arrangement can hardly be said to confer vision, but it can sense light and dark, and so it meets the creature's needs. The light-sensing organ of some starfishes is somewhat more sophisticated. Their eye is located in a depressed region. This allows the animal to sense which direction the light is coming from, since the curvature of the depression blocks off light from some directions. If the curvature becomes more pronounced, the directional sense of the eye improves. But more curvature lessens the amount of light that enters the eye, decreasing its sensitivity. The sensitivity can be increased by placement of gelatinous material in the cavity to act as a lens. Some modern animals have eyes with such crude lenses. Gradual improvements in the lens could then provide an image of increasing sharpness, as the requirements of the animal's environment dictated.

Using reasoning like this, Darwin convinced many of his readers that an evolutionary pathway leads from the simplest light sensitive spot to the sophisticated camera-eye of man. But the question remains, how did vision begin? Darwin persuaded much of the world that a modern eye evolved gradually from a simpler structure, but he did not even try to explain where his starting point for the simple light sensitive spot came from. On the contrary, Darwin dismissed the question of the eye's ultimate origin:

How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated. He had an excellent reason for declining the question: it was completely beyond nineteenth century science. How the eye works; that is, what happens when a photon of light first hits the retina simply could not be answered at that time. As a matter of fact, no question about the underlying mechanisms of life could be answered. How did animal muscles cause movement? How did photosynthesis work? How was energy extracted from food? How did the body fight infection? No one knew.

To Darwin vision was a black box, but today, after the hard, cumulative work of many biochemists, we are approaching answers to the question of sight. Here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision. When light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of retinal forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein's metamorphosis alters its behavior, making it stick to another protein called transducin. Before bumping into activated rhodopsin, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with activated rhodopsin, the GDP falls off and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin. (GTP is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP.)

GTP-transducin-activated rhodopsin now binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When attached to activated rhodopsin and its entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the ability to chemically cut a molecule called cGMP (a chemical relative of both GDP and GTP). Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the phosphodiesterase lowers its concentration, like a pulled plug lowers the water level in a bathtub.

Another membrane protein that binds cGMP is called an ion channel. It acts as a gateway that regulates the number of sodium ions in the cell. Normally the ion channel allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the ion channel and pump keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the amount of cGMP is reduced because of cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, the ion channel closes, causing the cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions to be reduced. This causes an imbalance of charge across the cell membrane which, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain. The result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision.

My explanation is just a sketchy overview of the biochemistry of vision. Ultimately, though, this is what it means to "explain" vision. This is the level of explanation for which biological science must aim. In order to truly understand a function, one must understand in detail every relevant step in the process. The relevant steps in biological processes occur ultimately at the molecular level, so a satisfactory explanation of a biological phenomenon such as vision, or digestion, or immunity must include its molecular explanation.

Now that the black box of vision has been opened it is no longer enough for an "evolutionary explanation" of that power to consider only the anatomical structures of whole eyes, as Darwin did in the nineteenth century, and as popularizers of evolution continue to do today. Each of the anatomical steps and structures that Darwin thought were so simple actually involves staggeringly complicated biochemical processes that cannot be papered over with rhetoric. Darwin's simple steps are now revealed to be huge leaps between carefully tailored machines. Thus biochemistry offers a Lilliputian challenge to Darwin. Now the black box of the cell has been opened and a Lilliputian world of staggering complexity stands revealed. It must be explained.

Irreducible Complexity
How can we decide if Darwin's theory can account for the complexity of molecular life? It turns out that Darwin himself set the standard. He acknowledged that:

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But what type of biological system could not be formed by "numerous, successive, slight modifications"?

Well, for starters, a system that is irreducibly complex. Irreducible complexity is just a fancy phrase I use to mean a single system which is composed of several interacting parts, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to cease functioning.

Let's consider an everyday example of irreducible complexity: the humble mousetrap. The mousetraps that my family uses consist of a number of parts. There are: 1) a flat wooden platform to act as a base; 2) a metal hammer, which does the actual job of crushing the little mouse; 3) a spring with extended ends to press against the platform and the hammer when the trap is charged; 4) a sensitive catch which releases when slight pressure is applied, and 5) a metal bar which connects to the catch and holds the hammer back when the trap is charged. Now you can't catch a few mice with just a platform, add a spring and catch a few more mice, add a holding bar and catch a few more. All the pieces of the mousetrap have to be in place before you catch any mice. Therefore the mousetrap is irreducibly complex.

An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly by numerous, successive, slight modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional. An irreducibly complex biological system, if there is such a thing, would be a powerful challenge to Darwinian evolution. Since natural selection can only choose systems that are already working, then if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to arise as an integrated unit, in one fell swoop, for natural selection to have anything to act on.

Demonstration that a system is irreducibly complex is not a proof that there is absolutely no gradual route to its production. Although an irreducibly complex system can't be produced directly, one can't definitively rule out the possibility of an indirect, circuitous route. However, as the complexity of an interacting system increases, the likelihood of such an indirect route drops precipitously. And as the number of unexplained, irreducibly complex biological systems increases, our confidence that Darwin's criterion of failure has been met skyrockets toward the maximum that science allows.

The Cilium
Now, are any biochemical systems irreducibly complex? Yes, it turns out that many are. A good example is the cilium. Cilia are hairlike structures on the surfaces of many animal and lower plant cells that can move fluid over the cell's surface or "row" single cells through a fluid. Inhumans, for example, cells lining the respiratory tract each have about 200 cilia that beat in synchrony to sweep mucus towards the throat for elimination. What is the structure of a cilium? A cilium consists of bundle of fibers called an axoneme. An axoneme contains a ring of 9 double "microtubules" surrounding two central single microtubules. Each outer doublet consists of a ring of 13 filaments (subfiber A) fused to an assembly of 10 filaments (subfiber B). The filaments of the microtubules are composedof two proteins called alpha and beta tubulin. The 11 microtubules forming an axoneme are held together by three types of connectors: subfibers A are joined to the central microtubules by radial spokes; adjacent outer doublets are joined by linkers of a highly elastic protein called nexin; and the central microtubules are joined by a connecting bridge. Finally, every subfiber A bears two arms, an inner arm and an outer arm, both containing a protein called dynein.

But how does a cilium work? Experiments have shown that ciliary motion results from the chemically-powered "walking" of the dynein arms on one microtubule up a second microtubule so that the two microtubules slide past each other. The protein cross-links between microtubules in a cilium prevent neighboring microtubules from sliding past each other by more than a short distance. These cross-links, therefore, convert the dynein-induced sliding motion to a bending motion of the entire axoneme.

Now, let us consider what this implies. What components are needed for a cilium to work? Ciliary motion certainly requires microtubules; otherwise, there would be no strands to slide. Additionally we require a motor, or else the microtubules of the cilium would lie stiff and motionless. Furthermore, we require linkers to tug on neighboring strands, converting the sliding motion into a bending motion, and preventing the structure from falling apart. All of these parts are required to perform one function: ciliary motion. Just as a mousetrap does not work unless all of its constituent parts are present, ciliary motion simply does not exist in the absence of microtubules, connectors, and motors. Therefore, we can conclude that the cilium is irreducibly complex; an enormous monkey wrench thrown into its presumed gradual, Darwinian evolution.

http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_idfrombiochemistry.htm


Game over kids.Laughing
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
; the notion that the information needed to make an eye could result from random mutations violates both Thermodynamics


No it doesnt. Please, give me a detailed description of Thermodynamics. I'm sure you know enough about it, I assume you know more than what a website tells you, at least.

The last post is too long for me to read on my break. Later. But no way game over.

Quote:
Just as a mousetrap does not work unless all of its constituent parts are present, ciliary motion simply does not exist in the absence of microtubules, connectors, and motors. Therefore, we can conclude that the cilium is irreducibly complex; an enormous monkey wrench thrown into its presumed gradual, Darwinian evolution.


We CAN conclude that, but we can also conclude that during the process, it made plausible steps, and then BECAME irreducible when reaching a certain stage. We can also conclude that god did it but hey. Not that I've read any more of it because I'm on a break.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomato wrote:

Creationists are fond of pouncing on every minor little disagreement they can find and pretend that Evolutionism is a house divided against itself which cannot stand..


If a poll were taken of all the scientists of the world, the majority would say they believed darwinism to be true.
But scientists, like everybody else, base most of their opinions on the word of other people. Of the great majority who accept Darwinism, most (though not all) do so based on authority. Few of scientists polled would be qualified in the relevant fields of microbiology or biochemistry.
Also, and unfortunately, too often criticisms have been dismissed by the scientific community for fear of giving ammunition to creationists. It is ironic that in the name of protecting science, trenchant scientific criticism of natural selection has been brushed aside. It is time to put the debate squarely in the open, and to disregard public relations problems. The time for the debate is now because at last we have reached the bottom of biology, and a resolution is possible.At the tiniest levels of biology-the chemical life of the cell- we have discovered a complex world that radically changes the grounds on which Darwinian debates must be contested.
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
at last we have reached the bottom of biology,


Now now, let's not be so arrogant. 'we' said that 120 years ago, 70 years ago, 50 years ago and 30 years ago, and look what happens each time, a whole realm is unlocked and suddenly we know F-all.
We pretty much know F-all about what we know exists, it's a ludicrous assumption that we have reached the bottom. Ludicrous.

All that has happened is that information has caught up with our technology, as it has done many times. *back to work*
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Globutron wrote:

Now now, let's not be so arrogant. 'we' said that 120 years ago, 70 years ago, 50 years ago and 30 years ago, and look what happens each time, a whole realm is unlocked and suddenly we know F-all.


Which makes Darwin's rough guesses 130 years ago seem all the more ridiculous.

Darwin did not understand or know about the cell. His postulated ideas relate to whole anatomical structures.

Modern scientists are now satisfied that the basis of life is in proteins and molecules.Thanks to the advent of X-ray crystallography.
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pangaea



Joined: 20 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
But scientists, like everybody else, base most of their opinions on the word of other people.


No, scientists base their opinions on valid scientific research.

Quote:
It is time to put the debate squarely in the open, and to disregard public relations problems.


There is no debate. The vast majority of the scientific community accepts evolution and is not concerned with what creationists believe. There is no conspiracy or unspoken agreement to keep the matter quiet. They simply have no interest in wasting their time discussing it. They are no more interested in debating with creationists then they are debating with flat earth theorists.
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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
NYC_Gal wrote:
Gender changing fish


Pangaea wrote:
Gender changing frog


And chameleons change color!

You don't appear to have a clue about what evolution is btw. Wouldn't you be better sticking to the Lindsey Lohan thread?


Actually, I'm just illustrating that changes can happen quickly. This one isn't evolution, just an example of rapid change.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Underwaterbob wrote:

The fact that people are so willing to doubt global warming based on an email or two kind of throws a wrench into the gears of your incredibly effective, evolution-scientist conspiracy.


No, it shows that the masses are mostly clueless about the environment and also looking for an excuse to keep their SUV.


The same masses that mostly believe in creationism? Maybe you're right.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
Neither of which qualify as a hoax. The pepper moth experiment was shown not to be


Ah but it was. The theory was that the moths perch on tree trunks and the white ones are picked off by birds. In fact they never perch on tree trunks, they perch on the underside of leaves where they remain unseen. The evo-guy glued them to the tree trunk to fit his theory.


I forget the exact details, but I believe that he was open about the numbers of moths that actually alit on tree trunks, and that his findings have been since been corroborated. The moth-glued-to-a-tree nonsense was done for a couple of admittedly staged photos.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
How is evolution being "forced on the people" when most in the US don't even believe it?

Umm..just look at your sentence for a minute and consider how illogical it is...lets just enjoy this ridiculous moment for a second.
OK. the majority still believe creationism despite evolutionism being forced on them. Get it now? Evolution has been mandated to be taught by law, creationism has been banned for 20 years. I'd call that "force", wouldn't you?


How much evolution did you study in grade school? I don't remember the word even being mentioned in thirteen years of science classes. I do remember my third grade teacher making our class pray together. That was the mid-eighties. Let's be realistic: Those elementary, middle and high school science teachers are the same Americans who mostly believe in creationism, whether or not they're allowed to teach it.
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