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Global Warming: Do you matter?
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Are your actions relevant to environmental degradation/global warming?
Yes
51%
 51%  [ 17 ]
No
48%
 48%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 33

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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Globutron wrote:
6,000 years is just stupid. There were settlers in Greece and Egypt 6,000 years ago.


Really? I thought the Greek civilisation lasted from about 900-200BC


"The first (proto-) Greek-speaking tribes, known as the Mycenaeans, are generally thought to have arrived in the Greek mainland between the late 3rd and the first half of the 2nd millennium BC--probably between 1900 and 1600 BC When the Mycenaens invaded there were various non-Greek-speaking, indigenous pre-Greek people already living on the Greek mainland and practicing agriculture, as they had done since the 7th millennium BC."

from wiki via Carl Roebuck, The World of Ancient Times


Last edited by NYC_Gal on Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Underwaterbob wrote:

.2 percent per breed.

No, for all domestic dogs.


Not all domestic dogs are genetically identical. This is really very simple.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
That's a lot of genetic information

No it isn't. I already showed you that 2 humans have more genetic varience than a wolf and a domestic dog.


Which dog? Are you suggesting that all breeds of dog are 100% genetically identical? Evidence?

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
magnetic fields have decayed at different rates in the past.

Evidence for this ridiculous claim?


Evidently your sarcasm detection is about as good as your ability to reason...

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
I suppose tectonic drift rates have changed too?


They must have been faster previously. Thats why many of your folded rock formations show no signs of cracking: they were formed while the rock was still molten. Indicating a fast rate of subduction.


"Fast rate"? You're talking staggeringly fast rate to have gone from Pangaea 4000 years ago to modern day continents. You have as much evidence of this occurring as I do for my "claim" about magnetic fields.
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've saved me some time NYC.

Again, you'll have to admit (you won't I know) that your geology claims are profoundly wrong, There's too much I have to argue against what you are claiming.
Now explain the multitude of civilizations, all vastly different, all around the world, at around the time of the great flood... who were unaffected by the continents drifting thousands of miles within a couple of years, the inevitable volcanoes and following mega ice age (possibly), the lack of food sources until they somehow managed to swiftly grow back... and so on.

And actually, magnetic fields DO change in pace. The north pole moves, the poles flip entirely, these are all common knowledge in this field of science, even I know these.

The vast change you're talking about is only true if it was consistent. which it isn't.
The magnetic field gets stronger and weaker at different times, and is in fact at quite a strong point in its history of magnetic strength.

Quote:
The dipole moment, a measure of the intensity of the magnetic field, is now 8 � 1022 amps � m2. That's twice the million-year average of 4� 1022 amps � m2.


Quote:
"We know this from studies of the paleomagnetic record.


You're a veteran in paleomagnetism, then?
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal wrote:
as they had done since the 7th millennium BC."


That is just somebody's speculation presented as fact in order to back up their theory.
In reality the "neolithic' age was around around 3-4000BC.

*Not all peoples around the globe had a uniform standard of technological development. Neither do they today.
If you go into the congo rainforest you will find pygmies armed with darts and arrows. Does that mean you have travelled back in time?

Underwaterbob wrote:
Not all domestic dogs are genetically identical. This is really very simple


You won't let this defeat go, will you? Laughing

of course no two dogs are identical. Neither are any two humans. There is natural variation within a species. In humans this can be up to 0.3 %, in wolves and domestic dogs up to 0.2%.

So any genetic differences are well within the normal variation of a species.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that all breeds of dog are 100% genetically identical?


No of course I didn't say that.
The study involved many wolves and many domestic dogs, not just one of each.
Trying to put words into my mouth isn't going to save you now...

Globutron wrote:
Now explain the multitude of civilizations, all vastly different, all around the world, at around the time of the great flood... who were unaffected by the continents drifting thousands of miles within a couple of years


Those civilizations were totally destroyed by the flood.
Most tectonic upheaval took place during the flood. Continental drift continued at a lesser rate after the flood. Land bridges such as eg Bering strait were connected until about 400 years afterward. At which point the bible records "the earth was divided".

Quote:
The magnetic field gets stronger and weaker at different times, and is in fact at quite a strong point in its history of magnetic strength.


Conjecture. The facts show that the earth's magnetic field has decayed at a steady rate- about 10% over the last 150 years- since measurements began.
Any speculation beyond that is made-up fairy tales once again.
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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not speculation. Talk to an anthropologist. If I didn't value anonymity, I'd have you talk to my mom, who, while focused mainly on paleontology, has found quite a few specimens that blast your claims out of the water.

As for your 150 years schtick: 150 years is but a mere blip in the scheme of things. It's less than a blink or heartbeat, when compared to Earth's timeline.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal wrote:
has found quite a few specimens that blast your claims out of the water.


Mommy's fossils show that nothing has changed.Disproving evolution.

They also prove that a catastrophic flood happened.. because there is no other explanation for how they could have formed.

Quote:
150 years is but a mere blip in the scheme of things. It's less than a blink or heartbeat, when compared to Earth's timeline.


You're assuming the earth's timeline without any evidence.

If I imagine that ..my chair is a billion years old and say so in a paper, does it become a fact?
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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
NYC_Gal wrote:
has found quite a few specimens that blast your claims out of the water.


Mommy's fossils show that nothing has changed.Disproving evolution.


Mom's fossils show that civilization existed far before your timeline began.

nautilus wrote:
They also prove that a catastrophic flood happened.. because there is no other explanation for how they could have formed.


There are plenty of explanations. We did have oceans, rivers, and lakes, you know. Flooding is just speculation and something written down by MAN as a way to get followers to a cult that caught on.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
150 years is but a mere blip in the scheme of things. It's less than a blink or heartbeat, when compared to Earth's timeline.


You're assuming the earth's timeline without any evidence.


There's loads of evidence. You're just putting your fingers in your ears and singing LALALALALA then cherry picking from the facts.


nautilus wrote:
If I imagine that ..my chair is a billion years old and say so in a paper, does it become a fact?


You'd have to run some tests. We do have the technology. People don't just write things in papers. Scratch that! Educated people don't just write things in papers.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Underwaterbob wrote:
Not all domestic dogs are genetically identical. This is really very simple


You won't let this defeat go, will you? Laughing

of course no two dogs are identical. Neither are any two humans. There is natural variation within a species. In humans this can be up to 0.3 %, in wolves and domestic dogs up to 0.2%.

So any genetic differences are well within the normal variation of a species.


So, for wolves to contain the genetic information of every breed of dog, they must also contain the differences between each breed, and therefore must have a great deal more genetic information than your average dog, which they don't. They would also not be 99.8% genetically similar to dogs if they "stored" the different genetics of every species of dog. You and Sarfati debunked.

I suppose in your next post you'll again clip out half a sentence of this, make some inane half-related point and declare victory.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
Are you suggesting that all breeds of dog are 100% genetically identical?


No of course I didn't say that.


Then you admit it's impossible for a wolf to "store" the genetic information of every breed of dog in its own genetics.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal wrote:
fossils show that civilization existed far before your timeline began.


Only if you impose an imaginary date on them in order to fall into line with your assumptions.

They date the rocks by the fossils in them, by the way.
First they make up an imaginary date for a certain fossil to have existed, eg 20 million years ago.. Then when they find a rock bearing that fossil, they say the rock is 20 M.y. old. Its called circular reasoning. Laughing
it proves nothing other than they are desperate to manipulate the evidence.

Quote:
There are plenty of explanations. We did have oceans, rivers, and lakes, you know.

None of which form fossils.
Quote:
Flooding is just speculation and something written down by MAN as a way to get followers to a cult that caught on.

Actually its the only way possible for fossils to form.

underwaterbob wrote:
Then you admit it's impossible for a wolf to "store" the genetic information of every breed of dog in its own genetics.

How is it impossible? Its not.

...Lets say you have a pack of 52 cards.
How many potential combinations can you get of those same cards if you shuffle them?
Each new combination produces a new appearance. But none has added any new cards.
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most tectonic upheaval took place during the flood. Continental drift continued at a lesser rate after the flood


Quote:
The facts show that the earth's magnetic field has decayed at a steady rate- about 10% over the last 150 years- since measurements began.
Meaningless. There are very certain ways of working out the levels of the magnetic field.

How about dendrochronology, you don't doubt this, do you? Surely not... aside from learning it in primary schoo, That would imply that seasons were not the same back then. Which means you mean to say the earth had a different orbit around the sun. Or is that the sun had a different orbit around us? We are the centre of the universe, afterall.


Here's a selection I've found on simple google search for you to dismiss as conjecture and flawed. I knew most of these myself, but it's easier to copy and paste than remember all this.

Take note of how much knowledge you must seriously claim to have to dismiss it all - either that or how much of a paranoid, conspiracy seeking loony you are. Not as a joke or insult, just seriously consider it. You have to deny Science, as a whole. As I've said before, this means you have to deny the existence of the computer you are using to read this, the house you are living in. The air you are breathing. Good luck.

Quote:

Some bristlecone pine trees in the White-Inyo mountain range of California date back beyond 2000 BCE. One, labeled "Methuselah" germinated in 2726 BCE. This is several centuries before the date that conservative Christians assign to Noah�s flood. These tree rings have been matched with those of dead trees; this shows that the latter germinated about 6000 BCE, which predates the year 4004 BCE by 2000 years.


Quote:
The Green River formation contains over 20 million varves (annual layers of deep lake sediment). Each varve represents one year.


Quote:
Ice core samples from Greenland and Antarctica show annual layers of ice deposits for at least 160,000 years.


Quote:
Because of tides, the rotation of the earth is gradually slowing, by about 1 second every 50,000 years. About 380 million years ago, each day would have been very close to 22 hours long! There would have been about 398 days in the year. Studies of rings on rugose coral fossils that were independently estimated to be 370 million years old revealed that when they were alive, there were about 400 days in the year. This relationship has been confirmed with other coral fossils.


Now this has been used by creationists and still is used, even though it was a blatant mistake on their half. But like you they still use it as material against science:
Quote:
The Earth is really slowing down at about 1.5 milliseconds a day per century�not 1.5 milliseconds a day per day


Massively overestimating the change.

Quote:
The thickness of the coral reef at Eniwetok atoll in the Pacific Ocean has been measured at up to 1380 meters. Even the most optimistic coral growth rates would require that the atoll be over 130,000 years of age.


Quote:
Measurements by sensors attached to satellites show that space dust accumulates on the moon at the rate of about 2 nanograms per square centimeter per year. (A nanogram is one thousandth of a millionth of a gram.) This rate would require 4.5 billion years to reach a depth of 1.5 inches, which is approximately the depth experienced by the astronauts who walked on the moon. This agrees rather well with radioactive dating of moon rocks.


Note here that they are coming to a conclusion AFTER noting it 'agrees rather well' with previous theories. So they are not presuming anything and throwing random aging on it.

Quote:
Estimates for the length of time for the galaxies to have spread apart to their present spacing are in excess of 10 billion years.


Now, I know myself here how to work out the speed that galaxies are moving apart via means of red-shift. If you don't I won't explain it but it's a very basic principal that has been known for many many years. The galaxies aren't new, too are they? They didn't move apart at 100000's of times the speed of light did they? Or are the telescopes mere conjecture, and galileo, copernicus, NASA etc just photoshopped galaxies out of guesswork?

You can say maybe 'sure the galaxies are older, but the earth isn't' - but really you can't, because this is denying a science at one point to agree, and then completely dismissing it just to suit the next point. The same science. You just can't do it.

Quote:
geologists have identified about 200 impact craters on the earth. Each impact releases energy greater than many nuclear warheads. If the earth were only 6 to 10 thousand years old, this would average 1 impact every 30 to 50 years.


Quote:
Thermoluminescence dating is the determination by means of measuring the accumulated radiation dose of the time elapsed since material containing crystalline minerals was either heated (lava, ceramics) or exposed to sunlight (sediments). As the material is heated during measurements, a weak light signal, the thermoluminescence, proportional to the radiation dose is produced.

Depending on the depth of the traps (the energy required to free an electron from them) the storage time of trapped electrons will vary- some traps are sufficiently deep to store charge for hundreds of thousands of years.


Also, I aksed this many pages back... What is OIL to you? is oil just a god like substance, with nothing to do with dead animals and trees? Coal? Conjecture?

Remember... Scientists were very reluctant themselves to admit the age of the earth, over the centuries the age has slowly increased, but scientists were rarely happy. Only one or two would shove the claim upwards. Most would dismiss until other undeniable evidence came. then the age would be known as say 10 million years.

Then someone else will come along and be dismissed. Eventually the age has increased until comparatively recently when we got the right technology. IT'S NOT PROPAGANDA. Scientists clearly didn't like this either but they SAW the evidence and had to adjust.

Unless you can officially debunk everything here, you are wrong. You could say the ID man made it look older or whatever, but... conjecture. You can't be scientific and then claim the god deceived us all as a joke at the same time. Stick to one or the other.

All science is a lie, that's what you're saying. Cars don't exist. Come on, now really.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In any case, ice layers do not represent years or any particular time frame...a single storm creates a new ice layer.
No that's not how it works.

Quote:
A lie spread on atheist websites, eh?


Quote:
As it turns out, these cycles-caused by regular variations in the eccentricity or ellipticity of Earth's orbit (period = 100,000 years) and the tilt of Earth's orbit (period = 41,000 years)-correspond perfectly with what's seen in those core layers. Finally, researchers have performed radiometric dating of minerals embedded in the ice to make sure their age corresponds with their annual layer, and in each case it does.


Quote:
Further corroboration comes from a sediment core drilled off shore from New Zealand's Southern Alps. It reveals the past 3.9 million years of Earth's crustal history.3 Though each layer in this core represents a few centuries rather than a single year, the climatic cycles and events in this core for the past 740,000 years match perfectly with corresponding layers in the Dome C ice core. Such a calibration builds confidence that these cores yield a continuous climatic, geological, and astronomical record for the past few million years at least.


This was from a faith based website I'm sure you're aware of.

Quote:
According to Psalm 19:1-4, God speaks not only through the words of the Bible but also through the record of nature. Since God speaks truth and chooses to reveal Himself, nature's record and the Bible's words can be expected to agree. The ice and sediment cores provide compelling extrabiblical evidence that the earth is indeed ancient. This evidence supports the literal interpretation of creation days in Genesis 1 as six long epochs.6


A lie spread on atheist websites, eh?

Quote:
However other researchers have shown that these trees grow more than one ring in unusual seasons.
How many unusual seasons are you expecting? Plus they're not the only example of ancient plants still around...

Quote:
King Clone is thought to be the oldest Creosote bush ring in the Mojave Desert. It has an average diameter of 13.7 meters (45 feet) and reaches up to 22 meters (67 feet) in diameter and is estimated to be 11,700 years old, possibly the oldest living organism on Earth


Quote:
Two-hundred and fifty million year-old bacteria, Bacillus permians, were revived from stasis after being found in sodium chloride crystals in a cavern in New Mexico. Russell Vreeland, and colleagues from West Chester University in Pennsylvania, reported on October 18, 2000 that they had revived the halobacteria after bathing it with a nutrient solution. Having survived for 250 million years, it is the oldest living thing ever recorded.


Quote:
Old Tjikko is estimated to be at least 9,550 years old, making it the world's oldest known individual vegetatively cloned tree.

The visible tree is relatively young, but it is part of an older root system which dates back thousands of years. The trunk of the tree may die and regrow multiple times, but the tree's root system remains intact and in turn sprouts another trunk. The trunk may only live for about 600 years, and when one trunk dies another eventually grows back in its place


Let's see.. what else happened 4,000 + years ago...

Quote:
2000 BC: Horses are tamed and used for transport.

2000 BC: Site of palace complex Knossos starts to be occupied.

2000 BC: Farmers and herders travel south from Ethiopia and settle in Kenya.

According to archaeological evidence, the Jōmon people created amongst the first known pottery vessels in the world, known as Jōmon Pottery, dated to the 14th millennium BCE

2000 BC: Bronze Age starts in north Ancient China.

1991 BC: Egypt: Pharaoh Mentuhotep IV died.

2000 BC � Glass appears.

2000 BC: First of the Minoan palaces on Crete.

2080 BC: Ninth Dynasty wars in Egypt.

So on and so forth.

Are you now saying that the ancient people of the day actually lied about their dating in order to start a conspiracy of the age of the earth? *rubs chin*
[/quote]
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Globutron wrote:
As it turns out, these cycles-caused by regular variations in the eccentricity or ellipticity of Earth's orbit (period = 100,000 years) and the tilt of Earth's orbit (period = 41,000 years)-correspond perfectly with what's seen in those core layers. Finally, researchers have performed radiometric dating of minerals embedded in the ice to make sure their age corresponds with their annual layer, and in each case it does.


Debunked. The scientists involved admitted the flaws in such calculations.


Quote:
�Fundamentally, in counting any annual marker, we must ask whether it is absolutely unequivocal, or whether nonannual events could mimic or obscure a year. For the visible strata (and, we believe, for any other annual indicator at accumulation rates representative of central Greenland), it is almost certain that variability exists at the subseasonal or storm level, at the annual level, and for various longer periodicities (2-year, sunspot, etc.). We certainly must entertain the possibility of misidentifying the deposit of a large storm or a snow dune as an entire year or missing a weak indication of a summer and thus picking a 2-year interval as 1 year.�

http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/1997/96JC03837.shtml

The Ice Age ended about 4000 years ago, so the compression of the ice sheet has been much less than uniformitarian scientists believe. So, one annual layer deep in the ice sheet may represent 100 or even 1000 uniformitarian �annual cycles.�
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NYC_Gal



Joined: 08 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="nautilus"]
NYC_Gal wrote:
fossils show that civilization existed far before your timeline began.

Only if you impose an imaginary date on them in order to fall into line with your assumptions.

They date the rocks by the fossils in them, by the way.
First they make up an imaginary date for a certain fossil to have existed, eg 20 million years ago.. Then when they find a rock bearing that fossil, they say the rock is 20 M.y. old. Its called circular reasoning. Laughing
it proves nothing other than they are desperate to manipulate the evidence.

They date rocks by the type of rock and the depth.

nautilus wrote:
Quote:
There are plenty of explanations. We did have oceans, rivers, and lakes, you know.

None of which form fossils.


Yes they do.

nautilus wrote:
]
Quote:
Flooding is just speculation and something written down by MAN as a way to get followers to a cult that caught on.

[Actually its the only way possible for fossils to form.


Or ice, or amber, or lakes, or oceans... Laughing
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal wrote:

They date rocks by the type of rock and the depth.


The depth just means the order in which the flood deposited it.
The type just depends on the main consituent. Eg trees=coal.

Incidentally, the lower strata is basically the first one to be covered by the flood. So there you find the immobile bottom-dwelling creatures. The different animals in different strata conform to what you'd expect in order of flood victims. Not the "chain of evolutionary development".

Quote:
Yes they do.

Please explain how fossils form.
This should be fun. Laughing

Quote:
Or ice, or amber, or lakes, or oceans

Amber and ice, sure.
lakes and oceans? Not normally...Unless subject to dramatic flood or tectonic upheaval.
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