| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey |
 |
|
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/35d01e4e-a895-11df-86dd-00144feabdc0.html
| Quote: |
US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey
President Barack Obama has personally warned Turkey�s prime minister that unless Ankara shifts its position on Israel and Iran it stands little chance of obtaining the US weapons it wants to buy. |
On Israel and Iran. Turkey is a NATO ally, a sane and civilized muslim state and growing economy. This is insane.
| Quote: |
| One senior administration official said: �The president has said to Erdogan that some of the actions that Turkey has taken have caused questions to be raised on the Hill [Congress] . . . about whether we can have confidence in Turkey as an ally. That means that some of the requests Turkey has made of us, for example in providing some of the weaponry that it would like to fight the PKK, will be harder for us to move through Congress.� |
Who is "we" in that sentence? An ally to whom?
| Quote: |
Washington was deeply frustrated when Turkey voted against United Nations sanctions on Iran in June.
When the leaders met later that month at the G20 summit in Toronto, Mr Obama told Mr Erdogan that the Turks had failed to act as an ally in the UN vote. He also called on Ankara to cool its rhetoric about an Israeli raid that killed nine Turks on a flotilla bearing aid for Gaza.
...
�They need to show that they take seriously American national security interests,� said the administration official, adding that Washington was looking at Turkish conduct and would then assess if there were �sufficient efforts that we can go forward with their request�.
US law requires the administration to notify Congress 15 days ahead of big arms sales to Nato allies such as Turkey. Although technically such sales can proceed � unless Congress passes legislation to stop them � resistance on Capitol Hill can push administrations to abandon politically unpopular sales.
Turkey has sought drones for several years. But its drive has taken on greater urgency both because of the continuing US withdrawal from Iraq and the tensions with Israel, which has provided Ankara with pilotless Heron aircraft.
Turkish officials characterise the military relationship with the US as very good but declined to comment on specific procurement requests. The administration has not notified Congress of any big arms sale to Turkey to date this year. |
This is pathetic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: Re: US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/35d01e4e-a895-11df-86dd-00144feabdc0.html
| Quote: |
US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey
President Barack Obama has personally warned Turkey�s prime minister that unless Ankara shifts its position on Israel and Iran it stands little chance of obtaining the US weapons it wants to buy. |
On Israel and Iran. Turkey is a NATO ally, a sane and civilized muslim state and growing economy. This is insane.
|
The US of A was nice while it lasted. It is now the US of I. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: Re: US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/35d01e4e-a895-11df-86dd-00144feabdc0.html
| Quote: |
US issues arms deal ultimatum to Turkey
President Barack Obama has personally warned Turkey�s prime minister that unless Ankara shifts its position on Israel and Iran it stands little chance of obtaining the US weapons it wants to buy. |
On Israel and Iran. Turkey is a NATO ally, a sane and civilized muslim state and growing economy. This is insane.
|
The US of A was nice while it lasted. It is now the US of I. |
I know, it's like this giant petulant Freudian id that sits between two oceans |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Apparently, Obama takes nuclear non-proliferation more seriously than Turkey does.
No drones for you, Turkey. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
India/Israel? Does America take non-proliferation seriously. How about Vietnam?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/05/us-vietnam-nuclear-negotiations
| Quote: |
| The US is said to be negotiating a controversial agreement with Vietnam to provide nuclear fuel and technology without the usual constraints on enriching uranium to prevent proliferation. |
No. That is not a sufficient argument HW. America/Obama do not give a damn about non-proliferation.
Turkey is being positioned as a pariah state. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
India/Israel? Does America take non-proliferation seriously. How about Vietnam?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/05/us-vietnam-nuclear-negotiations
| Quote: |
| The US is said to be negotiating a controversial agreement with Vietnam to provide nuclear fuel and technology without the usual constraints on enriching uranium to prevent proliferation. |
No. That is not a sufficient argument HW. America/Obama do not give a damn about non-proliferation.
Turkey is being positioned as a pariah state. |
India signed its agreement under Bush, I complained about it in these forums years ago. Israel is a threshold nuclear power, and has been for decades. As for Vietnam, we'll see.
I have little sympathy for Turkey. Its trying to position itself as a third axis in ME affairs. There will be gains, but as its seen, there shall also be pains. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I complained about it in these forums years ago. |
What your opinion on the matter years ago was is irrelevant to the fact that the Unite States does not give a damn about non-proliferation.
| Quote: |
| Israel is a threshold nuclear power, and has been for decades. |
Irrelevant. If you want a nuclear free ME then Israel (the most belligerent and violent state in the region besides America) has to disarm. Obama is not asking Israel to disarm ergo Obama does not care about non-proliferation in the region. Iran would be rational if it were (which it isn't) building nukes. I would too.
| Quote: |
| I have little sympathy for Turkey. Its trying to position itself as a third axis in ME affairs. |
Right, well, it actually borders a ME state. It also was the center of political and economic power for the region for quite a long time. It is also civilized and about as sane as muslim states get. I welcome the Turkish rise. I now understand why America wants Turkey in the EU. A Turkey in the EU is western focused. A Turkey focused on the ME is a risk to the only allowed power in the region. A Europe with Turkey in the EU is a time bomb for ethnic war and falls in on itself. A Europe without such domestic threats is externally meddlesome.
Will the Persians, Turks and Egyptians allow this little game to go on for ever?
And what the *beep* does any of this have to do with America? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Israel is a threshold nuclear power, and has been for decades. |
Irrelevant. If you want a nuclear free ME then Israel (the most belligerent and violent state in the region besides America) has to disarm. Obama is not asking Israel to disarm ergo Obama does not care about non-proliferation in the region. |
Is one view. Its pretty fruitless to ask established de facto powers to disarm. I'm saying requiring an American request to Israel to disarm is disingenuous, because such a request wouldn't lead anywhere. There won't be a nuclear free ME unless Israel willingly disarms. That is unlikely. It becomes even less likely should Iran arm itself with nuclear weapons.
| mises wrote: |
| Iran would be rational if it were (which it isn't) building nukes. I would too. |
And the risk of building nukes is pretty evident as well. The Iranians say they play chess so I assume they know the risks.
BTW, Obama has backed a UN resolution for a nuclear-free ME which singled out Israel. Insofar as he has, he is serious about non-proliferation.
| mises wrote: |
| And what the *beep* does any of this have to do with America? |
Well, US arms sales has a lot to do with America, since America would be the seller in that transaction. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises, why did you choose Fred Ott as your avatar? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I complained about it in these forums years ago. |
What your opinion on the matter years ago was is irrelevant to the fact that the Unite States does not give a damn about non-proliferation. |
If America were really concerned about nuclear non-proliferation, it would have stopped the USSR and every other subsequent state from developing them.
But no. It is in the ruling class' (read "arms manufacturers' and war profiteers'") interests to support conflicts everywhere. It is not even a conspiracy. For them, it is just business as usual. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I complained about it in these forums years ago. |
What your opinion on the matter years ago was is irrelevant to the fact that the Unite States does not give a damn about non-proliferation. |
If America were really concerned about nuclear non-proliferation, it would have stopped the USSR and every other subsequent state from developing them.
But no. It is in the ruling class' (read "arms manufacturers' and war profiteers'") interests to support conflicts everywhere. It is not even a conspiracy. For them, it is just business as usual. |
This sentiment is simply astounding. You're essentially saying the United States should have opposed proliferation to the point of conquering the world or something similar. Or do you have a peaceful method of coercion you think the US could have used on the USSR? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I complained about it in these forums years ago. |
What your opinion on the matter years ago was is irrelevant to the fact that the Unite States does not give a damn about non-proliferation. |
If America were really concerned about nuclear non-proliferation, it would have stopped the USSR and every other subsequent state from developing them.
But no. It is in the ruling class' (read "arms manufacturers' and war profiteers'") interests to support conflicts everywhere. It is not even a conspiracy. For them, it is just business as usual. |
This sentiment is simply astounding. You're essentially saying the United States should have opposed proliferation to the point of conquering the world or something similar. Or do you have a peaceful method of coercion you think the US could have used on the USSR? |
Yes, it is certainly problematic. I am not absolutely sure that we could have prevented the technology from getting out. And perhaps a nuclear world is preferable to an America-dominated one. Is it?
Also, is getting the entire world to disarm its nukes a total pipe dream? with its current rulers, I am afraid so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
[q
Irrelevant. If you want a nuclear free ME then Israel (the most belligerent and violent state in the region besides America) has to disarm. |
Since when was AMERICA a ME state? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Well, US arms sales has a lot to do with America, since America would be the seller in that transaction. |
Right. Why is the US meddling? The oil companies are against these escalations. Even Haliburton! For democracy in a racialist state?
You don't like it, but that doesn't make it untrue. It's ok, Canada has long been a client state of the USA. It really doesn't hurt the ego that much. You can admit it. The United States is a client state. Hey, Canada is a client state of a client state. Come out with it. All this dancing and maneuvering is silly. The US couldn't be #1 forever.
| Quote: |
| Since when was AMERICA a ME state? |
Since it colonized Iraq?
| Quote: |
| mises, why did you choose Fred Ott as your avatar? |
Neat picture.
| Quote: |
| BTW, Obama has backed a UN resolution for a nuclear-free ME which singled out Israel. Insofar as he has, he is serious about non-proliferation. |
The hologram signed a document? Any conditions? Maybe a little less cash? Did he apply pressure via the Israeli American Public Affairs Committee (IAPAC)?
...
Back to my OP. This is completely insane. Unhinged. Turkey is a damn NATO ally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Since when was AMERICA a ME state? |
Since it colonized Iraq?
Back to my OP. This is completely insane. Unhinged. Turkey is a damn NATO ally. |
Then that would make Iraq an American colony, not America a M.E state.
As for the OP, Turkey may be a NATO ally (actually it is a NATO member). That does not automatically preclude disagreement from taking place. If America disagrees with Turkey's stance on some issues, and if it feels those issues are serious enough, it is perfectly within its rights as a sovereign state to refuse to sell items that Turkey may want.
After all it does have strategic interests in the M.E and Turkey's meddling is affecting these interests in a negative way. It's really not that hard to understand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
