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Rocktek
Joined: 17 Dec 2009
Location: South Korea
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 4. If I put that $200,000 that I would've spent per child to cover tuition costs, living expenses, books, etc. into bonds yielding just 3% (any muni bonds) and let it compound for 49 years (adding back in the 4 years of college), I get $851,000. So my kids can avoid college and still end up with the same amount in the worst case. |
That's it? By avoiding college someone breaks even?
Now what about this? Have the kid live at home while at college, OR, if the kid lives on campus, don't give them a car. Suddenly, college becomes a winning proposition again. Along with the career possibilities, and, you know, the education itself.
I'm not supporting a college education for everyone. Clearly, trade schools are viable options for those who prefer to work with their hands. But this article was much weaker than I expected. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| This article also presumes that the average cost for a degree is $200000. My expense was much less than that, but then again I graduated in three years by taking college classes in high school. It still wasn't that close. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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It's really hard to generalize and say college/university is a scam because everyone is doing different things and paying different tuition.
Yes a lot of programs and a lot of colleges are scams these days because of the terrible cost to benefit ratio. So unless you are going to college for a profession that pretty much guarantees you a job, it's a scam.
Of course, people like fox will argue that getting a post secondary education itself has value. I don't really agree with this unless unless your family is already wealthy and taking a degree philosophy isn't going to break your wallet.
People are very slow to catch on to the fact that college is becoming a scam. It's only very recently that this issue has gone mainstream. It's going to be bit later when the outrage starts to pour out globally. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
It's really hard to generalize and say college/university is a scam because everyone is doing different things and paying different tuition.
Yes a lot of programs and a lot of colleges are scams these days because of the terrible cost to benefit ratio. So unless you are going to college for a profession that pretty much guarantees you a job, it's a scam.
Of course, people like fox will argue that getting a post secondary education itself has value. I don't really agree with this unless unless your family is already wealthy and taking a degree philosophy isn't going to break your wallet.
People are very slow to catch on to the fact that college is becoming a scam. It's only very recently that this issue has gone mainstream. It's going to be bit later when the outrage starts to pour out globally. |
This is very short sighted. Right now the employment picture is terrible, but this will not always be the case. Once employment rebounds and it isn't recession time anymore a degree will become more valuable. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
It's really hard to generalize and say college/university is a scam because everyone is doing different things and paying different tuition.
Yes a lot of programs and a lot of colleges are scams these days because of the terrible cost to benefit ratio. So unless you are going to college for a profession that pretty much guarantees you a job, it's a scam.
Of course, people like fox will argue that getting a post secondary education itself has value. I don't really agree with this unless unless your family is already wealthy and taking a degree philosophy isn't going to break your wallet.
People are very slow to catch on to the fact that college is becoming a scam. It's only very recently that this issue has gone mainstream. It's going to be bit later when the outrage starts to pour out globally. |
This is very short sighted. Right now the employment picture is terrible, but this will not always be the case. Once employment rebounds and it isn't recession time anymore a degree will become more valuable. |
Even if for the sake of argument it does return to pre-2005 levels (which probably wont happen for at least 10 years if ever..) You're still going to have a oversupply of people with BA's making the degree worthless. At least if you don't go to college you won't have debt. And debt these days isn't in the 5 digits anymore it's in 6 digits.
You can be saddled with close to 6 figure debt with no job while some girl you went to high school with has been working at McDonalds for the last 4 years saving her money and maybe even being promoted. Of course, she has no debt while you not only have college debt but credit card debt as well. So she has no debt, savings, experience while the average college graduate has no experience, no savings, no job and lots of debt. You have to ask yourself if it's worth it.
I want to stress this is the predicament many BA's will end up in. Not all. Many will obviously go into professions like medicine where there are jobs. College is not a scam if you get into a high in demand profession but for the rest of us that do not go into these professions you will be bouncing everywhere to find any job to pay off those student loans. You'll be question yourself again and again whether the 4 years you spent was worth it. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
It's really hard to generalize and say college/university is a scam because everyone is doing different things and paying different tuition.
Yes a lot of programs and a lot of colleges are scams these days because of the terrible cost to benefit ratio. So unless you are going to college for a profession that pretty much guarantees you a job, it's a scam.
Of course, people like fox will argue that getting a post secondary education itself has value. I don't really agree with this unless unless your family is already wealthy and taking a degree philosophy isn't going to break your wallet.
People are very slow to catch on to the fact that college is becoming a scam. It's only very recently that this issue has gone mainstream. It's going to be bit later when the outrage starts to pour out globally. |
This is very short sighted. Right now the employment picture is terrible, but this will not always be the case. Once employment rebounds and it isn't recession time anymore a degree will become more valuable. |
Even if for the sake of argument it does return to pre-2005 levels (which probably wont happen for at least 10 years if ever..) You're still going to have a oversupply of people with BA's making the degree worthless. At least if you don't go to college you won't have debt. And debt these days isn't in the 5 digits anymore it's in 6 digits.
You can be saddled with close to 6 figure debt with no job while some girl you went to high school with has been working at McDonalds for the last 4 years saving her money and maybe even being promoted. Of course, she has no debt while you not only have college debt but credit card debt as well. So she has no debt, savings, experience while the average college graduate has no experience, no savings, no job and lots of debt. You have to ask yourself if it's worth it.
I want to stress this is the predicament many BA's will end up in. Not all. Many will obviously go into professions like medicine where there are jobs. College is not a scam if you get into a high in demand profession but for the rest of us that do not go into these professions you will be bouncing everywhere to find any job to pay off those student loans. You'll be question yourself again and again whether the 4 years you spent was worth it. |
Maybe you are just bad at getting jobs. I turned down a job to work on a campaign for the senate to come to Korea and have worked a professional level job. I graduated in 2008, I'd say that the main way the recession affected me was that since I was the newest person at my job out of college I was first to go. The thing about your hypothetical mcdonalds worker is that they are still working at mcdonalds no matter how many times they are promoted. If you have a college degree you should be able to find something better than minimum wage even if it isn't ideal. The job market will improve faster than ten years, and when it does those with degrees will be better able to take advantage of it. Also just by being able to teach in Korea that is an advantage, as well as having the option to go to graduate school, and not being stupid is nice as well. many are able to graduate with little or no debt as well, I owe less than a grand. |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Students are graduating with 35K min in student debt. Add in interest and
various fees, compounded over the life of that loan and they are looking
at TWICE that amount when they finally pay it off. And most people spend the rest of their lives paying it off.
The next generation is learning from our mistakes. They realize we have been sold a false bill of goods. And are beginning to realize that the quality and usefulness of a college education are not what they were even 20
years ago.
A very interesting statistic is the number of kids forgoing college and
entering the skilled trade arena by way of apprenticeship. Two friends of mine skipped college and the student loan trap and learn skilled trades. One
is an underwater welder. And the other is a plumber. Both clear well over
100K. While most college grads with BA's are lucky to work at starbucks. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| thomas pars wrote: |
Students are graduating with 35K min in student debt. Add in interest and
various fees, compounded over the life of that loan and they are looking
at TWICE that amount when they finally pay it off. And most people spend the rest of their lives paying it off.
The next generation is learning from our mistakes. They realize we have been sold a false bill of goods. And are beginning to realize that the quality and usefulness of a college education are not what they were even 20
years ago.
A very interesting statistic is the number of kids forgoing college and
entering the skilled trade arena by way of apprenticeship. Two friends of mine skipped college and the student loan trap and learn skilled trades. One
is an underwater welder. And the other is a plumber. Both clear well over
100K. While most college grads with BA's are lucky to work at starbucks. |
While the thing is you can make good money as a skilled laborer, but you still have to labor, which sounds like a bad trade to me, low class too. The value will rebound, plus it's not impossible to get a good professional job if you work hard to get it. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Maybe you are just bad at getting jobs. I turned down a job to work on a campaign for the senate to come to Korea and have worked a professional level job. I graduated in 2008, I'd say that the main way the recession affected me was that since I was the newest person at my job out of college I was first to go. The thing about your hypothetical mcdonalds worker is that they are still working at mcdonalds no matter how many times they are promoted. If you have a college degree you should be able to find something better than minimum wage even if it isn't ideal. The job market will improve faster than ten years, and when it does those with degrees will be better able to take advantage of it. Also just by being able to teach in Korea that is an advantage, as well as having the option to go to graduate school, and not being stupid is nice as well. many are able to graduate with little or no debt as well, I owe less than a grand. |
You are assuming things about me when you do not know anything about me. I don't have employment problems like you might think (I just don't brag about it like madoka does), that doesn't change the fact that BA's are not worthless because they sure are, especially when everyone else has the same credentials.
My point with the McDonalds example was to show you the difference between what the graduate has (no job, student debt, no experience) and what the girl has straight out of high school (job, no debt, experience). Most students have massive debt they can't own a home, they have to live with their parents, they have to delay marriage and parenthood.
Teaching in Korea is the only exception to the rule. I cringe each time a dave's poster brings it up as a knock down argument as to why the BA is still good investment. Because seriously, if that wasn't available there would be virtually nothing. It would be starbucks, group interviews at the mall, whatever you can land at home through friends and networking.
If you only owe a grand you are one of the very few people out of the rest that owes so little. There are people that owe 6 figures for just a BA and are paying it down in Korea right now as we speak. I actually knew an American girl that owed over 6 figures for undergrad. I doubt she'll ever be able to pay it off. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Just one point:
Even if the author's math is correct about future earnings, in general, college grads do higher quality work. Less back-breaking labour, dangerous conditions, etc. That's gonna be worth something. |
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sallymonster
Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Location: Seattle area
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| If you have a college degree you should be able to find something better than minimum wage even if it isn't ideal. |
I came to Korea almost exactly a year after I got my B.A. During that year, I tried to find a job that paid more than minimum wage, first in Portland and then Seattle. I must have applied for over a hundred jobs (nothing fancy, either) but went on just a few interviews (mostly for bank teller positions that pay hardly more than minimum wage but at least have some advancement opportunities). I was never hired, except for the Census, but that only lasted a few weeks. The thing is, the college degree is still valuable, but only if you have work experience relevant to your chosen field. Look at job postings on Craigslist, even lower level positions require a year or two of experience. Once you have the experience, the degree helps you advance, or so I hear anyway. Unfortunately, my work experience before Korea includes retail, fundraising, roller skating rink, and a small amusement park. Those jobs paid my living expenses when I was in school and during the summers, but I don't intend to go into any of those fields. The only decent job I seem to be qualified for is teaching in Korea, so here I am until I can save some money and figure out my next steps.
However, recessiontime is right that if you major in something in-demand, like engineering or nursing, your degree alone could get you a job. Those majors are exceptions. I majored in History, and while I learned lots of interesting things I will likely have to re-train in a different major just to be able to make a living back in the US. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
While the thing is you can make good money as a skilled laborer, but you still have to labor, which sounds like a bad trade to me, low class too. The value will rebound, plus it's not impossible to get a good professional job if you work hard to get it. |
Labor is low class??? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
While the thing is you can make good money as a skilled laborer, but you still have to labor, which sounds like a bad trade to me, low class too. The value will rebound, plus it's not impossible to get a good professional job if you work hard to get it. |
Labor is low class??? |
Not trying to be elitist, but yeah it definitely is. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| sallymonster wrote: |
| However, recessiontime is right that if you major in something in-demand, like engineering or nursing, your degree alone could get you a job. Those majors are exceptions. I majored in History, and while I learned lots of interesting things I will likely have to re-train in a different major just to be able to make a living back in the US. |
Or get a professional grad degree. That's what I did. |
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