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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| I meant criminals in general, sending old ones to the front lines doesn't make much sense. The old ones can do other menial jobs like growing crops on farmland. |
They already do some work, like cleaning up highways and making licenses plates. They might do more stuff, but those are the two I know of. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Just something I found:
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United States
The 13th Amendment of the American Constitution in 1865 explicitly allows penal labour as it states that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." However the "convict lease" system became popular in the South in the late 19th century. Since the impoverished state governments could not afford penitentiaries, they leased out prisoners to work at private firms. Douglas A. Blackmon argues that it was Southern policy to intimidate blacks; tens of thousands of African Americans were arbitrarily arrested and leased to coal mines, lumber camps, brickyards, railroads, quarries and farm plantations.[3] The state governments maximized profits by putting the responsibility on the lessee to provide food, clothing, shelter, and medical care for the prisoners, which resulted in extremely poor conditions, numerous deaths, and perhaps the most inhumane system of labour in the United States[4]. Reformers abolished convict lease in the Progressive Era, stopping the system in Florida in 1919. In the last state Alabama the practice was abolished in 1927.
Penal labour is sometimes used as a punishment in the U.S. military.[5] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour#United_States |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Seoulio was advocating Penal Labor of a more "bullish" variety.
Jail food ain't bad- 3 sqaure meals a day. Fresh fruit. Better than McDonald's.
While I agree in theory that a way to deter crime is to make jail less appealing, I think jail is already pretty unappealing. Short of systemic torture and near-certain death gulag style conditions you aren't going to make prison substantially more unappealing.
I mean with prison (not jail) essentially you should either rehabilitate people or just kill them or just punish them for punishments sake.
Rehabilitation treats the problem, but its expensive and not always effective. However when dealing with felons this is the only way of truly solving the problem.
Death sovles the problem. Morally unsavory at best, but at least there is a certain logic to it. I mean a swift and certain death penalty for carjacking and looting has a way of bringing rapid order to a place. That and if someone is constantly going to be in and ot of the system, why bother? Just get it over with. However this doesn't solve the problem and there is the whole "wrongfully accused" aspect. I mean how many people have died because some panicky eyewitness said "It was him officer, that black guy!"
The last point of prison is to punish so as to deter and show some kind of 'morality'. I say in this case things such as lashings or canings are just as effective and are way less costly.
Jail exists for the puproses of weekend to month long stays for minor crimes so as to 'send a message'. With normal people a weekend is enough. With harder cases, maybe a month. It doesn't have to be a Hilton, it doesn't have to be a gulag. It just has to have no women, no booze, and no fun.
I do not agree with a system that serves little purpose beyond holding people in conditions that do little else but breed increased criminal activity and then releasing them. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I now know at least one serious law professor who believes the following:
The vast expansion of the 4th, 5th, 6th Amendments, and 14th Amendments (which I'll hereafter just call the Due Process Amendments) in the 60s and 70s created strains on state finances. Particularly after Gideon v. Wainwright
372 U.S. 335 (1963), which decided that States must provide counsel to indigent defendants. The States, to deal with the climbing costs, decided to raise maximum and minimum sentences guidelines. Why? If a Defendant has about a 25% chance of conviction and the maximum sentence is 10 years, he's likely to take the risk of going to trial. If a Defendant has about a 25% chance of conviction and the maximum sentence is 30 years, he's more likely to cop a plea. Thus a trial, and its attendant expenses, are more likely to be avoided. Call it judicial economics.
Under the Rehnquist and Roberts courts, the Due Process Amendments have been diluted a bit. Perhaps this will allow for maximum and minimum sentencing guidelines to recede. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Is that really a free choice though? I mean, if you are offered 5-10 years if you plead guilty, but likely to get 20-30 if convicted, will you take the chance of a trial where 90+% of which end in convictions? You better be pretty damn sure you can convince a jury to take that chance, EVEN IF you are innocent.
I'd rather know that I'll be out in 5 than risk having to do 20 or 30.
Anyway, to claim prison is a country club is ludicrous. First, prisons are horrible places: people getting stabbed on a regular basis, no privacy, etc. Do I really have to enumerate this stuff? Second, I don't care if it were a palace. If I can't go out the door when I want to or bring in who I want to, that loss of my liberty is a horrible punishment and I don't want it. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Is that really a free choice though? I mean, if you are offered 5-10 years if you plead guilty, but likely to get 20-30 if convicted, will you take the chance of a trial where 90+% of which end in convictions? You better be pretty damn sure you can convince a jury to take that chance, EVEN IF you are innocent.
I'd rather know that I'll be out in 5 than risk having to do 20 or 30. |
I'm decidedly arguing its not really a free choice. The maximums and minimums were raised in each State to make trials more risky for defendants. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Is that really a free choice though? I mean, if you are offered 5-10 years if you plead guilty, but likely to get 20-30 if convicted, will you take the chance of a trial where 90+% of which end in convictions? You better be pretty damn sure you can convince a jury to take that chance, EVEN IF you are innocent.
I'd rather know that I'll be out in 5 than risk having to do 20 or 30.
Anyway, to claim prison is a country club is ludicrous. First, prisons are horrible places: people getting stabbed on a regular basis, no privacy, etc. Do I really have to enumerate this stuff? Second, I don't care if it were a palace. If I can't go out the door when I want to or bring in who I want to, that loss of my liberty is a horrible punishment and I don't want it. |
Corporal punishment ftw. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Those poor inmates.
Too old to assrape, too old to be assraped.  |
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