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snugglezone
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: SMOE vs EPIK |
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I was originally going to go through a recruiter, but I read on here that there is preference for those who apply directly (confirm?). When is a likely date that the spring application will be posted online? Do I need to wait to submit the application until I have all of my documents?
Is SMOE more competitive than EPIK? I mainly want to be in Seoul due to the ease of finding mma gyms, which seem to be lacking in Korea.
If anyone knows of any good gyms that's all I'm really looking for in my placement xD
And as for the background check, is state level okay or do I need the national one?
Snuggz |
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mooncake08
Joined: 14 May 2010
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Having a recruiter or applying directly will have no effect on your application to EPIK. However only recruiters listed on their website are allowed to work with EPIK. Things that will help your application however are TESOL certificate, teaching experience, etc. |
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drama_addict
Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| snugglezone wrote: |
I was originally going to go through a recruiter, but I read on here that there is preference for those who apply directly (confirm?). When is a likely date that the spring application will be posted online? Do I need to wait to submit the application until I have all of my documents?
Spring positions are being advertised now online. However, they will not begin going over apps and conducting interviews until January of 2011. Everything in Korea is always last minute. This includes government-run programs and hiring.
Is SMOE more competitive than EPIK? I mainly want to be in Seoul due to the ease of finding mma gyms, which seem to be lacking in Korea.
If anyone knows of any good gyms that's all I'm really looking for in my placement xD
Seeing as how the majority of young twenty-somethings fresh out of Uni want Seoul or Busan, then yes, urban positions are more competitive. Your best bet is to put down multiple preferences on you application to improve your chances. And there's gyms everywhere in Korea, even in smaller cities.
And as for the background check, is state level okay or do I need the national one?
Beginning 1 January, 2011, all E2 Visa applicants must submit a Federal Level CBC. This includes fingerprinting. (Get it started now).
Snuggz |
Good Luck. |
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lazurus
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| It still amazes me why anyone would work in a substandard 3rd world country for EPIK with a proper teaching credential when they could work in the modern UAE doing the same thing for 5X the salary. |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| lazurus wrote: |
| It still amazes me why anyone would work in a substandard 3rd world country for EPIK with a proper teaching credential when they could work in the modern UAE doing the same thing for 5X the salary. |
Hey - I work for Footprints and the schools that we've contacted, and the schools that contact us all seem to require more than a teaching license. They usually ask for 2 years of full time teaching experience at least - I'm not saying all schools say this, just a lot of them.
If first time teachers fresh out of school could get jobs for 5x more, wouldn't that mean that more people would do it? That would just make it more competative, and make schools pickier, and then the first time teachers would get passed over for more experienced teachers.
In a simplistic version of events, you have cuts to Education in North America, meaning teachers get laid off, or retire early if they are lucky, so you have a pool of candidates with experience and they want to go somewhere.
Then you have all the teachers who graduated in 2008 who have had a hell of a time finding work, the teachers in 2009 who graduated and are still trying to find work, when there are still people from 2008 on the sub lists, and then we'll have the 2010 crop starting soon too. It is pretty bad in both Canada and the US (though for different reasons).
So - if you're one of the experienced teachers...you flock to the Middle East where the money is, and that leaves very little for the new teachers. The experienced teachers "scoff" at the thought of a "substandard 3rd world country" like South Korea (I've lived there, and for all its faults I wouldn't call it 3rd world, but that's another argument), so that leaves the low hanging fruit that is South Korea to our recently graduated teachers in need of experience.
Compared to the prospect of substitution lists, irregular paychecks or worse - unemployment + student loans - I competely understand the rationale. For all the downsides and negatives that people tend to go on and on about on Dave's...South Korea is a great experience for a lot of people. Further, besides a paycheck and a roof over their heads (plus the ability to travel to other countries with relative east) these teachers can get something that is very valuable to them, and that is a solid year to practice their craft - that's important.
-Will at Footprints |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ To be honest, I don't think the idea of living in the UAE really attracts many teachers. From what I've heard, teaching in the middle east is more "for the money" than for the experience. |
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TofuCookie
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: |
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First of all, I want to say that this forum has been extremely helpful. My husband and I are planning to move to Korea in Dec 2011 and it has not been easy to get information that I needed even though I am a Korean who speaks and read Korean. It would be great if I can get some insight from someone who has more experience. Thank you for your help in advance.
- Goal: 2011 March SMOE (for personal matter, outside of Seoul is not an option...unfortunately)
- Status: Started working on doc requirement (FBI background check, diploma etc..pain)
Q1. Best way to apply?? (1)EPIK WEBSITE vs (2)KOREAN EMBASSY in US vs (3)RECRUITER?
: I agree with many about recruiter...maybe epik website (now only by email instead of online application) is better but how about via Korean embassy? Anyone tried that route?
Q2. I realized that you need to send application ASAP for SMOE but while recruiters are taking application for 2011 march epik already, EPIK told me March 2011 application info will be on their website in Oct. Should I still email applicaiton to EPIK website before Oct?
Q3. Is it possible to get Hakwon Job starting in Jan 2011 and go there and switch to EPIK (SMOE) in Feb 2011 if SMOE position is available? |
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omgitsmax
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I can't say for sure but i will answer with the best of the knowledge i have gathered from the forums...
1: People tend to believe that applying directly to EPIK is best, i am also applying to SMOE for March 2011 and have decided to go ahead and apply directly myself. The process doesn't seem too bad and i would rather not have to deal with a middle man...but that is just me.
2:I know that you have to apply to a recruiter to even work with them so my assumption is that they are trying to find people and then get the paper work started because the FBI CBC is going to take quite some time. I don't believe this has to do with submitting applications to EPIK just quite yet because the website does not say they are accepting march applications yet.
3. I highly doubt it. The only way you are going to get to korea and have a job is AFTER you sign a contract. I sincerely doubt there would be a hagwon out there dumb enough to leave a clause in there for you to leave after 1 month if you find something better.
Hope that helps? Good Luck!
Also, I am getting my papers together...the only things i am required to have 100% ready is the application, smoe attachment, and recommendations done to submit to secure an interview? All the rest of the documents don't need to be submitted till after the interview? |
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TofuCookie
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks "omgitsmax" for the information.
1. Yes I am going toward going directly with EPIK website too..seems easier. It is just that I heard that if you go through embassy, the consulate is the one interviewing you and recommending you so it stands out more among other applicants? If SMOE is that competetive, it might make a difference.
2. That is a good news and it is also good news that you only need to have application and recommendation letters which we already have. Recommendation letters are general one and a bit old 2-3 years. but I dont believe it will make much difference. My husband just sent FBI background check application and they said it can take upto 3 months to get it and diploma with apostille sounds like it takes a good 2-4 weeks.
3. If someone quits hakwon in 1-2 months, Hakwon will probably want the airfare back and that is it???
My husband can get F2 visa I believe since I am a Korean citizen but not sure if F2 is better than E2 to get into SMOE. |
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lazurus
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTurnerinVanCity wrote: |
| lazurus wrote: |
| It still amazes me why anyone would work in a substandard 3rd world country for EPIK with a proper teaching credential when they could work in the modern UAE doing the same thing for 5X the salary. |
Hey - I work for Footprints and the schools that we've contacted, and the schools that contact us all seem to require more than a teaching license. They usually ask for 2 years of full time teaching experience at least - I'm not saying all schools say this, just a lot of them.
If first time teachers fresh out of school could get jobs for 5x more, wouldn't that mean that more people would do it? That would just make it more competative, and make schools pickier, and then the first time teachers would get passed over for more experienced teachers.
In a simplistic version of events, you have cuts to Education in North America, meaning teachers get laid off, or retire early if they are lucky, so you have a pool of candidates with experience and they want to go somewhere.
Then you have all the teachers who graduated in 2008 who have had a hell of a time finding work, the teachers in 2009 who graduated and are still trying to find work, when there are still people from 2008 on the sub lists, and then we'll have the 2010 crop starting soon too. It is pretty bad in both Canada and the US (though for different reasons).
So - if you're one of the experienced teachers...you flock to the Middle East where the money is, and that leaves very little for the new teachers. The experienced teachers "scoff" at the thought of a "substandard 3rd world country" like South Korea (I've lived there, and for all its faults I wouldn't call it 3rd world, but that's another argument), so that leaves the low hanging fruit that is South Korea to our recently graduated teachers in need of experience.
Compared to the prospect of substitution lists, irregular paychecks or worse - unemployment + student loans - I competely understand the rationale. For all the downsides and negatives that people tend to go on and on about on Dave's...South Korea is a great experience for a lot of people. Further, besides a paycheck and a roof over their heads (plus the ability to travel to other countries with relative east) these teachers can get something that is very valuable to them, and that is a solid year to practice their craft - that's important.
-Will at Footprints |
All valid points; but I wasn't making a comparison to unqualified and non-credentialed teachers on substitute lists but to teachers who have public school teaching credentials and people with Master of Arts degrees in Education or TESOL.
I do agree that if someone doesn't have a teaching credential, has no experience, has a Bachelor of Arts in Generic and a desire to "free talk" and not teach then EPIK is an excellent choice.
However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADEC is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point.
But carry on with your comparison of apples (EPK) to bananas (substitute teaching) rather than to oranges (ADEC). But at the end we both know the difference is about 3 thousand dollars that these people could be making.
Unlike you I am not a paid recruiter. I just believe people should have the facts- however, again carry on with your quota sales pitches for future prospects for your organization Footprints don't let choice and the truth stand in your way.
Last edited by lazurus on Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| lazurus wrote: |
| However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADED is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point. |
Oh please, you've got to be kidding. You call the money we make in Korea a subsistence wage? And you're saying Korea is a third world country?? Have you ever even lived here? In the 6 months since I've been here, I send $400 home a month, I've bought about $500 worth of clothes, an Xbox 360S, a new computer with a 23" monitor, a $200 guitar, I've taken two trips to Everland/Seoul (I live in Busan), joined a martial arts class, decorated my apartment, bought hundreds of dollars of board games, video games, and books, and I eat whatever I want and take taxis all the time. You call that a subsistence wage?
And Korea is a member of the OECD. So no, it is not a 3rd world country. Sheesh. 
ETA: And btw, I came through Gone2Korea (an excellent recruiter) so I can't speak from personal experience, but from everything I've heard Footprints is a reputable and reliable recruiter. So newbies, don't let lazarus's babbling fool you. |
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lazurus
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| lazurus wrote: |
| However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADED is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point. |
Oh please, you've got to be kidding. You call the money we make in Korea a subsistence wage? And you're saying Korea is a third world country?? Have you ever even lived here? In the 6 months since I've been here, I send $400 home a month, I've bought about $500 worth of clothes, an Xbox 360S, a new computer with a 23" monitor, a $200 guitar, I've taken two trips to Everland/Seoul (I live in Busan), joined a martial arts class, decorated my apartment, bought hundreds of dollars of board games, video games, and books, and I eat whatever I want and take taxis all the time. You call that a subsistence wage?
And Korea is a member of the OECD. So no, it is not a 3rd world country. Sheesh. |
Wow I am impressed. Now think of what you could do in terms of savings with 64,000 USD a year (my current salary).
Maybe in a few years you can buy a car like me too 
http://www.agr.com.sa/ |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| lazurus wrote: |
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| lazurus wrote: |
| However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADED is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point. |
Oh please, you've got to be kidding. You call the money we make in Korea a subsistence wage? And you're saying Korea is a third world country?? Have you ever even lived here? In the 6 months since I've been here, I send $400 home a month, I've bought about $500 worth of clothes, an Xbox 360S, a new computer with a 23" monitor, a $200 guitar, I've taken two trips to Everland/Seoul (I live in Busan), joined a martial arts class, decorated my apartment, bought hundreds of dollars of board games, video games, and books, and I eat whatever I want and take taxis all the time. You call that a subsistence wage?
And Korea is a member of the OECD. So no, it is not a 3rd world country. Sheesh. |
Wow I am impressed. Now think of what you could do in terms of savings with 64,000 USD a year (my current salary).
Maybe in a few years you can buy a car like me too
http://www.agr.com.sa/ |
How does the cost of living compare to Korea though? And next year, if I decide I'm going to stay for the long haul, I'm planning on getting a car here anyway. Apparently used cars here are super cheap since Koreans prefer new ones.
Plus, I'm a woman with an intolerance for heat and a fondness for tank tops and alcohol. I'd die before I'd live in the Middle East.  |
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lazurus
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| lazurus wrote: |
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| lazurus wrote: |
| However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADED is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point. |
Oh please, you've got to be kidding. You call the money we make in Korea a subsistence wage? And you're saying Korea is a third world country?? Have you ever even lived here? In the 6 months since I've been here, I send $400 home a month, I've bought about $500 worth of clothes, an Xbox 360S, a new computer with a 23" monitor, a $200 guitar, I've taken two trips to Everland/Seoul (I live in Busan), joined a martial arts class, decorated my apartment, bought hundreds of dollars of board games, video games, and books, and I eat whatever I want and take taxis all the time. You call that a subsistence wage?
And Korea is a member of the OECD. So no, it is not a 3rd world country. Sheesh. |
Wow I am impressed. Now think of what you could do in terms of savings with 64,000 USD a year (my current salary).
Maybe in a few years you can buy a car like me too
http://www.agr.com.sa/ |
How does the cost of living compare to Korea though? And next year, if I decide I'm going to stay for the long haul, I'm planning on getting a car here anyway. Apparently used cars here are super cheap since Koreans prefer new ones.
Plus, I'm a woman with an intolerance for heat and a fondness for tank tops and alcohol. I'd die before I'd live in the Middle East. |
In terms of "tolerance" Qatar and UAE are more tolerant. You don't have to wear a scarf or anything.
Bahrain is the most liberal but there are few jobs on the small island nation. But there are plenty of night clubs, drinking and craziness to par any wild night in Pusan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAidT7uG8Co |
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WillTurnerinVanCity
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| lazurus wrote: |
All valid points; but I wasn't making a comparison to unqualified and non-credentialed teachers on substitute lists but to teachers who have public school teaching credentials and people with Master of Arts degrees in Education or TESOL.
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I understand, and I would like to add that I am also referring to licensed teachers with BEds or MEds.
| lazurus wrote: |
I do agree that if someone doesn't have a teaching credential, has no experience, has a Bachelor of Arts in Generic and a desire to "free talk" and not teach then EPIK is an excellent choice.
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I think that is inflammatory language to describe EPIK and probably unnecessary. Not all teachers have the experience that you describe above.
| lazurus wrote: |
However, if someone DOES have a teaching credential then earning at least twice if not three times working for ADEC is a much better choice if they do have student loans since rather than simply making a subsistence wage but are able to make and save money on a decent wage of between 3-6 thousand dollars. That is my point.
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I agree in that there are opportunities with ADEC that pay between $3000 and $6000, but I think your point doesn't take the economy into consideration. Abu Dhabi has about 1 million people. How many jobs for $3000 to $6000 are really in Abu Dhabi? Given that there aren't that many jobs there, the demand is probably pretty low. As there are hundreds of thousands of out of work teachers in North America and the UK, that means that there is a tremendous supply, no? With an increased supply, that means that it is more competative. Why hire a fresh BEd when you can hire an MEd? Why hire a fresh MEd when you can hire an MEd with 5 years of experience?
Seoul alone has 12 million people. They hire more teachers than Abu Dhabi. There are more jobs there (though - they don't pay as well obviously) but if the choice is a) waiter at Denny's in Kalamazoo because I can't find a full time teaching job with my BEd, b) apply for Abu Dhabi where they won't hire me because I don't have any experience or an MEd, or c) EPIK where I get 2 grand a month with my rent paid and I get to teach, I don't think option C) is really as bad as you make it out to be.
| lazurus wrote: |
But carry on with your comparison of apples (EPK) to bananas (substitute teaching) rather than to oranges (ADEC). But at the end we both know the difference is about 3 thousand dollars that these people could be making. |
I agree that the difference is $3000 but if there are a fraction of the openings and they are more competative...what does the other 85% of the unemployed BEd & MEd crowd do?
| lazurus wrote: |
Unlike you I am not a paid recruiter. I just believe people should have the facts- however, again carry on with your quota sales pitches for future prospects for your organization Footprints don't let choice and the truth stand in your way. |
I am a paid recruiter, so we spend a lot of time looking at the industry as a whole, not just from the perspective of a teacher. I don't feel that this makes me less qualified to comment.
I apologize to you, and everyone else on the board, if my comments sound like a sales pitch. I don't feel as though I made any pitch to convince people to go through one recruiter or another, but if you feel that way, my sincerest apologies. Since this is the EPIK 2011 thread, I thought that this would be an appropriate place to present a counter argument to why EPIK is not the worst alternative. Posting on Dave's isn't easy. If I disclose that I'm a recruiter, people dismiss the arguments because of that. If I don't disclose that fact, people who know I'm a recruiter dismiss my arguments because I'm hiding that fact. I'd rather disclose and be held accountable for what I write.
Lazarus, I think that the facts that you've chosen to look at do support what you are saying. Simply saying "there are jobs that pay $5000 a month in Abu Dhabi, why teach for EPIK for $2000 a month" is a pretty clear cut point. Based on that simple statement, I would have to agree with you. But I feel as though the population of the UAE and Abu Dhabi indicates that there aren't that many jobs there, compared to EPIK, and that a smaller demand and an increased supply means that there are a lot of licensed teachers, BEds and MEds who won't be fortunate enough to obtain work with ADEC for $5000 a month. Given that, EPIK is not a bad choice.
I'm not trying to say that you're not trying to speak the truth. I'm just saying there is more to consider. If you have additional arguments as to why I'm wrong or not being truthful, I'm all ears. To be fair I have no idea what ADEC's actual numbers are each year, I'm just assuming that EPIK is higher because I know their numbers, and South Korea has seven times the population of the UAE, so I'm assuming they have more schools and more job openings.
-Will at Footprints |
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