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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:51 am Post subject: question about the position of a comma |
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I have a question about the position of the comma that follows "treasure" in the following sentence:
The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure, that when they were asked where the gold was, they would say, �You tell us,� and walk away.
Actually, a student thinks that the comma in question should be moved to after that [The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure that,~.] or removed from the sentence. She wants to know which position(s) are correct - and why. I think it's correct where it is, but I'm not sure on the "why" part.
Can anyone confirm whether or not I'm right/wrong and offer some form of justification?
Thanks.
Last edited by raewon on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:12 am Post subject: |
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I might be mistaken, but I believe no comma is needed. If the writer wanted to add a comma for a dramatic pause, then you would be correct and not the student. As for looking up grammar rules...... not that bored atm  |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: |
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I thought you were going to ask about the (,) after (you tell us)
It is "You tell us,� or "You tell us�,
Look at these two sentences. It is a similar situation.
1. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam."
2. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam".
I am 51. It seems to have changed over the years from #1 to #2
I remember in one of my PhD seminars in 1993 one of the students pointed out that it seems to have changed from #1 to #2. She, as also the prof. and I thought #1 is correct because the entire sentence was her quote, and as such the period should be in front of the (").
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Richard Krainium
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:52 am Post subject: Re: question about the position of a comma |
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| raewon wrote: |
I have a question about the position of the comma that follows "treasure" in the following sentence:
The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure, that when they were asked where the gold was, they would say, �You tell us,� and walk away.
Actually, a student thinks that the comma in question should be move to after that [The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure that,~.] or removed from the sentence. She wants to know which position(s) are correct - and why. I think it's correct where it is, but I'm not sure on the "why" part.
Can anyone confirm whether or not I'm right/wrong and offer some form of justification?
Thanks. |
Here's a good reference. Strunk's The Elements of Style
http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html
Enclose parenthetic expressions between commas.
The best way to see a country, unless you are pressed for time, is to travel on foot.
This rule is difficult to apply; it is frequently hard to decide whether a single word, such as however, or a brief phrase, is or is not parenthetic. If the interruption to the flow of the sentence is but slight, the writer may safely omit the commas. But whether the interruption be slight or considerable, he must never omit one comma and leave the other. |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:48 am Post subject: Re: question about the position of a comma |
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| raewon wrote: |
| The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure, that when they were asked where the gold was, they would say, �You tell us,� and walk away. |
Your student may be trying to put the comma after "that" to make a dependent clause, but you can show clearly that the sentence makes no sense without it, that the remaining portion is not in fact an independent clause: The explorers were so fed up searching for the treasure that they would say, �You tell us,� and walk away.
Your student's suggestion of doing away with the first comma is a wise one given the grammatical form "so______ that _____" doesn't have a comma, as in "he was so tired that he slept for fifteen hours".
Your usage of the comma only seems apt if one initially gives another sense to "so" as in "very", in which case the word "that" is coupled with the comma preceding it as a connective (e.g., "He was so tall, that twenty basketball recruiters came to watch him play").
One thing three years of grad school in the philosophy of language has taught me is that grammar and meaning are determinable only with respect to the context of use, that there are a multiplicity of forms of language (see what I did there?  ). |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
I thought you were going to ask about the (,) after (you tell us)
It is "You tell us,� or "You tell us�,
Look at these two sentences. It is a similar situation.
1. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam."
2. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam".
I am 51. It seems to have changed over the years from #1 to #2
I remember in one of my PhD seminars in 1993 one of the students pointed out that it seems to have changed from #1 to #2. She, as also the prof. and I thought #1 is correct because the entire sentence was her quote, and as such the period should be in front of the (").
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http://grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html
| Quote: |
Now, keep in mind that this comma and period inside the quotation marks business is strictly American usage. The British don't do it that way. They are inclined to place commas and periods logically rather than conventionally, depending on whether the punctuation belongs to the quotation or to the sentence that contains the quotation, just as we do with question marks and exclamation points.
And just why, you may ask, do they belong there? Well, it seems to be the result of historical accident. When type was handset, a period or comma outside of quotation marks at the end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position, so the printers tucked the little devils inside the quotation marks to keep them safe and out of trouble. But apparently only American printers were more attached to convenience than logic, since British printers continued to risk the misalignment of their periods and commas.
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WadRUG'naDoo
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| I think that, if I were asked, I'd say, "The comma's after 'that' and there's no comma after 'us'." |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
I thought you were going to ask about the (,) after (you tell us)
It is "You tell us,� or "You tell us�,
Look at these two sentences. It is a similar situation.
1. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam."
2. She said, "I can not go because I have to study for an exam".
I am 51. It seems to have changed over the years from #1 to #2
I remember in one of my PhD seminars in 1993 one of the students pointed out that it seems to have changed from #1 to #2. She, as also the prof. and I thought #1 is correct because the entire sentence was her quote, and as such the period should be in front of the (").
|
http://grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html
| Quote: |
Now, keep in mind that this comma and period inside the quotation marks business is strictly American usage. The British don't do it that way. They are inclined to place commas and periods logically rather than conventionally, depending on whether the punctuation belongs to the quotation or to the sentence that contains the quotation, just as we do with question marks and exclamation points.
And just why, you may ask, do they belong there? Well, it seems to be the result of historical accident. When type was handset, a period or comma outside of quotation marks at the end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position, so the printers tucked the little devils inside the quotation marks to keep them safe and out of trouble. But apparently only American printers were more attached to convenience than logic, since British printers continued to risk the misalignment of their periods and commas.
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I think inside is logical because then the quote contains what she said (i.e., a complete sentence). However, what you call the British system seems to be the American choice today. |
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