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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: |
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well music like most things have their snobs!
movies... art house or foreign films only!
wine.. ohhh god don't get me started on them!
food, coffee, art ohhh god the Art snobs! ahahahaha
music... the jazz crew! these guys bring snobbery to a whole new level..
true hip hop.. none of that sell out commercial shite snobs...
so dude... classical music... yeah they just old school man!
but you gotta admit.. it is amazing music when you really think about it deeply... |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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What Tomato wrote was actually pretty simple and I knew none of it before I read it. Having the intellect of a twelve year old child myself, I'd give it the thumbs up.
I hate when people whine about snobs. Everyone is a snob is some sense. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| A major problem with Western music since the Baroque (and these days, almost all music) is that it is based on an artifically equalized scale, which strictly speaking makes *everything* out of tune, and because of this limits music's intellectual function. Tomato said that the pentatonic and heptatonic scales somehow conform better to the human mind, and I have to agree and expand the point: they conform better to the world itself, because they are based on mathematical relations inherent in the world. Moving on to tonality, I find that music, in order to be intelligible and not just noisy, requires a tonic, sounded or implied. 'Revolutionary' atonal music and even heavily modulated and harmonized romantic music are meaningless, at worst schizophrenic, at best sentimental. I have to warn everyone that listening to them will structure one's mind on a similar basis. These 'advances' are often defended as being more expressive. [Or somehow truer: in a similar discussion, a composer told me that "since life is dissonant, it only makes sense to create dissonant music."] In contrast classical, baroque, renaissance, and early music like plainchant - authentically performed on unequal scales - make sense, and that is why I listen to them. Though I do like Manowar. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I hate when people whine about snobs. Everyone is a snob is some sense.
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I hate it when people hate it when people whine about snobs. I am openly admitting that I am a snob in many forms, but I tend to keep it to myself, rather than snickering behind their back and making life for others miserable. Only to be shat on by the victim's superior University outcome. Sucker.
| Quote: |
| volutionary' atonal music and even heavily modulated and harmonized romantic music are meaningless, at worst schizophrenic, at best sentimental. |
I disagree. For example, Ligeti, the man of Micropolyphony - built up chords that sustain over long periods and change very slightly over time - makes some beautiful creations I get entirely lost in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OQbA3r78M&feature=related
It's completely beautiful to me.
As you can hear, it is clearly not with a strong tonal centre, if one at all. But today, modern composers focus less on 'tonality' and more on OTHER aspects such as time (aleatory for example - the freedom of time where performers are left to interpret the music in any way, and cause chance music - never performed the same twice), texture, timbre and so forth.
To make such a big deal out of a single aspect of music - tonality - is very limiting, I think.
There are composers who completely ignore tonality, but these are the experimentalists that tend to lead to the applicable music in the future.
I think it's far more 'natural' to explore and advance than it is to remain in this pentatonic and heptatonic state for centuries to come. Change is who we are.
By the way, it's not that I DON'T like hepatatonic and pentatonic music. It's just that I get heavily disappointed when I go to a concert and I have to listen to the exact same drivel I have for years. Even just using the same scales in a new way would suit me fine. But hearing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg1dMpu4v7M in every single concert I've ever been to drives me... NUTS.
You could say I need a... NUTCRACKER.
Incidentally, try singing the part at 1:23. I hear it's impossible. but at that 'not quite impossible' stage that makes you think you can do it.
And, does anybody else who calls korean homes get this tune down the phone all the time? I actually love it in that context. well, I like it in general for light listening. But I go to concerts for some musical inspiration and a new experience. Not the same experience I had 17,000 times in 2004. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 'Revolutionary' atonal music and even heavily modulated and harmonized romantic music are meaningless, at worst schizophrenic, at best sentimental. |
I disagree. For example, Ligeti, the man of Micropolyphony - built up chords that sustain over long periods and change very slightly over time - makes some beautiful creations I get entirely lost in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OQbA3r78M&feature=related
It's completely beautiful to me. |
I found that piece distressingly alienated and turned it off after a few seconds.
| Globutron wrote: |
As you can hear, it is clearly not with a strong tonal centre, if one at all. But today, modern composers focus less on 'tonality' and more on OTHER aspects such as time (aleatory for example - the freedom of time where performers are left to interpret the music in any way, and cause chance music - never performed the same twice), texture, timbre and so forth.
To make such a big deal out of a single aspect of music - tonality - is very limiting, I think.
There are composers who completely ignore tonality, but these are the experimentalists that tend to lead to the applicable music in the future. |
Tonality isn't just a single aspect of music. Trying to write a song without a tonic is like trying to draw a circle without a centre. The tonic is the foundation for the relations of all the other notes. That means that without a tonic, there are no meaningful relations between the notes, and thus no music. If you find atonal music meaningful, either you have a vague, dissociated notion of meaning, or you are instinctively projecting a tonic onto what you hear.
The experiments you mentioned are all dead ends.
| Quote: |
By the way, it's not that I DON'T like hepatatonic and pentatonic music. It's just that I get heavily disappointed when I go to a concert and I have to listen to the exact same drivel I have for years. Even just using the same scales in a new way would suit me fine. But hearing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg1dMpu4v7M in every single concert I've ever been to drives me... NUTS.
You could say I need a... NUTCRACKER.
Incidentally, try singing the part at 1:23. I hear it's impossible. but at that 'not quite impossible' stage that makes you think you can do it.
And, does anybody else who calls korean homes get this tune down the phone all the time? I actually love it in that context. well, I like it in general for light listening. But I go to concerts for some musical inspiration and a new experience. Not the same experience I had 17,000 times in 2004. |
Weird, I never hear that. The TSO just plays Mahler and Bach. I don't often go, because I hate Mahler and I find the empty ritualism deadening: sit, appreciate, clap. For living music I go to churches and small performances.
Last edited by Koveras on Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
<<<pentatonality>>>
Have you ever seen Korean children playing Arirang on the black keys only? That is possible because Arirang is in the pentatonic mode, or the mode using only do, re, mi, so, and la. It is possible to play in the pentatonic mode in any key, but if you play in the key of F#, those five pitches coincide with the five black keys on the piano.
Just remember that penta- means "five" and tonality means "tones."
Every culture in the world has pentatonic music. Pentatonic music is relatively easy, so the folk music of most cultures abounds with the pentatonic mode. Here in Korea, you have likely been surrounded with pop songs, folk songs, and all other styles of Korean music in the pentatonic mode without even realizing it.
Children's songs are especially doremisolacious. Examples in our language include Mary Had a Little Lamb, The Farmer in the Dell, and Old MacDonald Had a Farm. Examples in Korean include 여우야, 꼼아야, and 우리 집에 왜 왔니?
For this reason, some innovators in music education, notably Zoltan Kodaly and Carl Orff, suggest confining beginning music students to the pentatonic mode.
If you want to learn more about pentatonic music, I am setting up a Website on the subject: http://www.pentatonika.net |
As far as I know, the traditional pentatonic scale isn't equivalent to the black keys on the piano, which are equalized in the modern fashion. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
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I hate when people whine about snobs. Everyone is a snob is some sense.
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I hate it when people hate it when people whine about snobs. I am openly admitting that I am a snob in many forms, but I tend to keep it to myself, rather than snickering behind their back and making life for others miserable. Only to be shat on by the victim's superior University outcome. Sucker.
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How do you know they are snickering behind your back? The whole idea is absurd. You've run into a band of people who solely listen to classical music and spend their time making fun of the uninitiated. How could your life be made miserable by such a cabal? |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Globutron wrote: |
| Quote: |
I hate when people whine about snobs. Everyone is a snob is some sense.
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I hate it when people hate it when people whine about snobs. I am openly admitting that I am a snob in many forms, but I tend to keep it to myself, rather than snickering behind their back and making life for others miserable. Only to be shat on by the victim's superior University outcome. Sucker.
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How do you know they are snickering behind your back? The whole idea is absurd. You've run into a band of people who solely listen to classical music and spend their time making fun of the uninitiated. How could your life be made miserable by such a cabal? |
I know because I hear them, and see them whisper across the room (this is UNIVERSITY we're talking about here, not high school), and for the first year of uni I was on my own entirely with no help in performances because people didn't want to help me and my 'futuristic' style. Eventually they were forced to, and I started winning competitions and the like.
I was never *miserable* per se, I'm happy alone, but I was definitely frustrated that my grades depended on other people's actions, and those other people had no intention of helping like they did everyone else. I can see how others would become miserable in that situation.
I'll discuss the tonal centre shortly |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| Using jargon can be a pompous cover for mediocrity or simply a rhetorical gaff when used with those Aristotle called the uneducated (those without formal knowledge of the given subject). As Einstein claimed, any idea worth its salt ought to be explainable to a reasonable intelligent 12 year old child. As C. S. Peirce puts it, a clear idea is one that is not mistaken for another, however technical and artificial one's language need become to express it. The point here is: tomato is not intellectually superior, he just knows about an academic subject within which ideas are defined in a clearer way. |
Tomato was giving definitions, not just using terms to show off. Thank him. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tonality isn't just a single aspect of music. Trying to write a song without a tonic is like trying to draw a circle without a centre |
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Hardly. A circle without a centre is impossible. Music with no tonal centre is just not always agreeable to the listeners because they feel the need for it to 'make sense' in the traditional form, because they are not acclimated to the alternative.
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| The tonic is the foundation for the relations of all the other notes. That means that without a tonic, there are no meaningful relations between the notes, and thus no music. |
That entirely depends on your definition of music. As far as I'm concerned, all Music is really defined as is a set of sounds that are organised. You can restrict this more in saying they are organised by humans. Obviously it would be being picky to suggest, say, the sound of an engine must therefore be music, but the general idea is there.
Also, if music was unchanging, say, V I V I V I V I V I in C maj for 78 minutes - no dynamics, no pause, just smooth, plain playing, would you listen to it at a concert? Saying the tonality - in fact saying the TONIC is the foundation is implying that nothing else is of real value.
The tonic is only the foundation if that is how you see it. The way I write music, personally, does not rely so heavily on such a thing. My music is by no means atonal. In fact it's largely diatonic, but the relation between textures and dynamics are usually my starting points.
The mood, story and/or language is the only outcome truly necessary.
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| I found that piece distressingly alienated and turned it off after a few seconds. |
Well perhaps that was the idea? I know it wasn't but it's an example. I personally feel the large string forces and layering effects give rise to a lot of space, and makes me feel I'm floating in an unknown dimension of sorts. (I could never get such a feeling from the likes of Mozart. At best all I got was happy or sad, maybe angry with beethoven)
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| If you find atonal music meaningful, either you have a vague, dissociated notion of meaning, or you are instinctively projecting a tonic onto what you hear. |
It may be true that humans instinctively project a tonic. It may not. But even so, the music isn't written to 'hide' from a tonal centre. It was in the early experimental days, but now it's just a musical technique. It's being used to create an effect or a feeling. If this means for a person to automatically resolve notation in their mind, then so be it. This is no different than a sustained 4th note in a root cord of Bach. You automatically try to resolve it down to the Major 3rd, whether it happens or not, and thus a feeling of restrain occurs.
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| The experiments you mentioned are all dead ends. |
They really aren't. Saying that is the same as saying 'classical music is at a dead end'. Or how physicists 80 years ago and again 50 years ago would say 'physics is at an end, we understand everything about the universe now'.
The experiments have led to considerable musical advancement of the likes that are quite popular amongst modern composers. Go to most, perhaps 90% of universities in England and they will ALL consist of modules of modern composition. It is very unlike America, where I was told they will generally have to go through all the classical processes such as bach chorales and the like, first, in order to 'get a grip' on composition. Let me know if I'm wrong on this though, but it ain't true here. At my university it was standard for all composers to join the module of modern musical techniques. This would never be the case if it was a 'dead end'.
Last edited by Globutron on Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Double post of some sort. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| Tonality isn't just a single aspect of music. Trying to write a song without a tonic is like trying to draw a circle without a centre. The tonic is the foundation for the relations of all the other notes. That means that without a tonic, there are no meaningful relations between the notes, and thus no music. If you find atonal music meaningful, either you have a vague, dissociated notion of meaning, or you are instinctively projecting a tonic onto what you hear. |
I denounce your liberal acceptance of the heathenly intervals of major seconds and sixths. All pure music is only in unisons, thirds, fifths, octaves and their inversions. Gregorian chant forever!
/sarcasm
I find your definition of music distressingly limiting. Everyone interprets tonality differently. Check out Harry Partch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHBqFevy0k |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| Tonality isn't just a single aspect of music. Trying to write a song without a tonic is like trying to draw a circle without a centre. The tonic is the foundation for the relations of all the other notes. That means that without a tonic, there are no meaningful relations between the notes, and thus no music. If you find atonal music meaningful, either you have a vague, dissociated notion of meaning, or you are instinctively projecting a tonic onto what you hear. |
I denounce your liberal acceptance of the heathenly intervals of major seconds and sixths. All pure music is only in unisons, thirds, fifths, octaves and their inversions. Gregorian chant forever!
/sarcasm
I find your definition of music distressingly limiting. Everyone interprets tonality differently. Check out Harry Partch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHBqFevy0k |
I was heavily disappointed when I realised it wasn't Harry Potter. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and in regards to microtonality, of course that isn't a dead end.
This can and is used in pop music (Tangerine Dream, Porcupine Tree, Joe Satriani to name a few)
here's an example that revolves around the Bohlen Pierce Scale.
http://www.ziaspace.com/elaine/BP/BPmusic/LoveSong_BPscale_EW.mp3
But do you really consider this song nonsensical and morbid sounding? It's just as lovely as any great song I've heard.
This scale, which has no octaves, and 13 unequal intervals is programmed into very expensive musical software now, such as Omnisphere that I have, for people to use. It can't be that much of a dead end if Software creators are depending on it.
Also in the programme are many equal temperament scales - 12 tone, 24 tone, Arabit 22-tone, Pythagorean 17-tone, Carlos Gamma 35 -tone, 48, 31 and so on-tone scales. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| Tonality isn't just a single aspect of music. Trying to write a song without a tonic is like trying to draw a circle without a centre. The tonic is the foundation for the relations of all the other notes. That means that without a tonic, there are no meaningful relations between the notes, and thus no music. If you find atonal music meaningful, either you have a vague, dissociated notion of meaning, or you are instinctively projecting a tonic onto what you hear. |
I denounce your liberal acceptance of the heathenly intervals of major seconds and sixths. All pure music is only in unisons, thirds, fifths, octaves and their inversions. Gregorian chant forever!
/sarcasm |
Well, Gregorian chant is some of the best music accessible to us.
Commonly understood limits are necessary for meaningful expression. &blech*v ymbbblaiiiiii schschsluoegof nibbni kKkKkC garfield?? |
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