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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
A few people have mentioned that it was the person's choice to take out a loan and so it is there responsibility to pay it off. Let's take a closer look at that statement.
-I would say about 90% of the families I grew up around ( in a middle class Ontario city ) were in no position to simply pony up the cash for their kids' education. Quite a few simply refused to pony up the dough. Telling me and my friends to just take out that government loan. It will make a man out of you Billy!
Number of times I heard the phrase "you simply have to go to university in order to have a life!" Parents, teachers, guidance counsellors...you name them. Teachers who told me to take a mechanics course, encouraged me to learn about investing and the stock market........BIG FAT ZERO!
What is a kid supposed to do in this kind of environment? Is a 19 year old supposed to know and understand the ins and outs of life by then? Let's not forget that in some provinces kids head off to uni around 17. Are they supposed to be wise to the ways of the world by then?
No..they listen to what everyone else around them is telling them. Primarily the people in their lives they are supposed to trust the most. Their very own parents and teachers.
It's sad really. It took us a while to get to this situation and it was a winding road. Mises understands how we got there. A few more parents or teachers like him is what is needed. |
There are plenty of cheaper schools around. One doesn't have to spend that much. One of my friends was raised in foster care. At the age of 18, he was on his own. He got a night job and saved up for a year, then went to a local 4 year school, paid 4,400 USD per year including books, all the while working that same night job. He refused to have a roommate after a lifetime of horrid shared rooms with near-strangers, so also had rent to worry about. He took out ZERO loans and got a 4-year degree. Sure, it's not a well-known school, but it got him his degree, and he's doing well now. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Kudos for him. He sounds like a hard worker and I respect that. I wish I could have gone and stood in line with him at the bank when he first graduated and asked for a car or home loan. How do you think that would have went down?
A.) Wow, you worked your ass off and graduated university all without falling into debt!? Here is your loan man! You ROCK! A finer example of independance and sound financial planning I have never seen!
B.) Sorry sir. With no credit history we just aren't able to loan you any money. Go get a credit card. Make some big purchases. Don't pay that card off all at once at the end of the month. We prefer you to spread out your payment, over a long period of time, finally paying much more than the original value of the goods in question. That shows maturity! Then come back. We'll give you the loan.
I'm not really going to argue morals here but you have to face it. A lot of how the system is set up encourages people to live in debt. I simply don't have any issues with anyone choosing to take advantage of this particular system. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| My father told me I'd have to fund my own university education if I was serious about it. I worked p/t during semesters and had summer jobs every year and paid my way through. I went onto a career then then I decided to teach in Korea and I met a guy in Busan who bragged he was on student loans until he was 28, owing a hundred thousand dollars, avoiding it all by living overseas until enough time has passed so that he could declare bankruptcy. Such a guy would have made me upset back in my uni days, but these days I just shrug and think the world is full of all types. |
Didn't you read the article I posted?
41% of the 85000 NZers living overseas have their loans in default. This is not the first time a thread will be created about this issue and believe me it wont be the last time. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
Kudos for him. He sounds like a hard worker and I respect that. I wish I could have gone and stood in line with him at the bank when he first graduated and asked for a car or home loan. How do you think that would have went down?
A.) Wow, you worked your ass off and graduated university all without falling into debt!? Here is your loan man! You ROCK! A finer example of independance and sound financial planning I have never seen!
B.) Sorry sir. With no credit history we just aren't able to loan you any money. Go get a credit card. Make some big purchases. Don't pay that card off all at once at the end of the month. We prefer you to spread out your payment, over a long period of time, finally paying much more than the original value of the goods in question. That shows maturity! Then come back. We'll give you the loan.
I'm not really going to argue morals here but you have to face it. A lot of how the system is set up encourages people to live in debt. I simply don't have any issues with anyone choosing to take advantage of this particular system. |
That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a credit history. He had credit cards, used them to pay each semester's tuition, and paid it off within 2 or 3 months. He had the money saved, you see, but knew that he needed to develop credit, so used his cards to make larger purchases, even though he could have just used his debit card directly.
I do the same with my credit cards. I pay the majority of the balance, leave 30% for the next month, then pay that off the second day of the next billing cycle. I only end up paying a few dollars extra, and it's garnered me a great credit rating.
Don't people take economics anymore? |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. I took two classes on economics. One taught by my father who taught me never to spend money I didn't have. If I wanted something I worked for it, saved up for it, and bought it later.
The other class I took in school. Pretty much the same one you outlined above. This class taught me that getting a credit card as soon as you could was the way to go. It taught me to purchase things I couldn't immediately afford. It taught me a lot of shit, that while the standard of the day, put a lot of my friends in very terrible situations.
My question is this. Why should people be punished if they decide to follow the former rather than the latter. Do you consider it sound financial planning to pay interest, credit card fees and so on just to satisfy a system that is set up specifically to use you? A system that actually relys on people to buy things they cannot afford upfront in order to turn profit?
I have nothing wrong with the concept of credit as a service offered to those specifically in need of it. I have a problem with credit being the basis for our ecnomic system. I have even less respect for it when it is perpetrated at the expense of social and individual freedoms.
I'm glad you worked hard and were able to fit into the system have it work to your advantage.
You are aware that there are hard working people out there who are living paycheque to paycheque right? I would like to see you walk up to a hard working single mother supporting 2 or 3 kids and tell her to her face that she needs to get a bloody credit card. Pay interest on things she doesn't need and can't afford just to satisfy the system. What exactly is someone who is working poor supposed to buy if they can barely put food on the table? Why is it that they should pay interest they shouldn't have bought in the first place?
If you are going to take a leap and suggest I have no clue and was unable to study economics, let me make a similar leap and suggest that you are probably the kind of person who also comments on people of certain demographics "living beyond their means." |
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0ju
Joined: 30 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
1) I've got a lucrative freelance career that gives me way more disposable income than I would have if living only on my ESL salary. |
Yes, yes, we know. You've mentioned your lucrative freelance career several times, my gorgeous and brilliant flower.
Last edited by 0ju on Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
A few people have mentioned that it was the person's choice to take out a loan and so it is there responsibility to pay it off. Let's take a closer look at that statement.
-I would say about 90% of the families I grew up around ( in a middle class Ontario city ) were in no position to simply pony up the cash for their kids' education. Quite a few simply refused to pony up the dough. Telling me and my friends to just take out that government loan. It will make a man out of you Billy!
Number of times I heard the phrase "you simply have to go to university in order to have a life!" Parents, teachers, guidance counsellors...you name them. Teachers who told me to take a mechanics course, encouraged me to learn about investing and the stock market........BIG FAT ZERO!
What is a kid supposed to do in this kind of environment? Is a 19 year old supposed to know and understand the ins and outs of life by then? Let's not forget that in some provinces kids head off to uni around 17. Are they supposed to be wise to the ways of the world by then?
No..they listen to what everyone else around them is telling them. Primarily the people in their lives they are supposed to trust the most. Their very own parents and teachers.
It's sad really. It took us a while to get to this situation and it was a winding road. Mises understands how we got there. A few more parents or teachers like him is what is needed. |
Yes we got there because people failed to educate themselves financially and keep an eye on things. These are the same people that recklessly take out student loans and then end up defaulting.
I thought everyone on this board was a free-thinker. A critical-thinker. Not a herd following consumerist like those awful Koreans everyone rags on.
But what is made clear through the litany of excuses and "but I was 19 and didn't know any better" statements is that you guys weren't thinking. You were following the herd. The education system failed to give you the critical financial thinking skills necessary to cope with things.
Maybe if you had it drilled through rote memorization- "Save, Save, Save" you might not be in this situation. Just a thought.
It is your responsibility and your parents responsibility to educate yourselves and to make yourself fully aware of the consequences of a decision you make, especially one involving contracts, 5 figures, and a signature on a dotted line.
I maintain that if you are going to gleefully default on your loan and avoid payments then the loan agency should have every right to seize your degree and return you to "High School Graduate" status, thereby revoking your privilege to teach in this country.
I see nothing in what NYC_Gal has written that did not constitute sound advice or display anything but a solid work ethic.
Blaming the banks and predatory lenders will not solve your financial problems or develop the mindset necessary to increase one's personal assets. A defeatist mentality to the credit system is precisely what those predatory lenders want.
Again- do you really believe that if you choose to default on your loans or willfully avoid them that that will be beneficial toy our psyche? What does that do to one's self esteem and thei ability to consider themselves trustworthy.
If you defaulted on your loan, could you, in all fairness, trust yourself with money? Clearly not. You cannot be trusted to follow a contract or to handle large amounts of money. You would subconsciously understand this about yourself. That lack of trust in oneself would be extremely detrimental.
Who cares about predatory banks. What's $50,000 when the cost is your soul and self-esteem? |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I hope all the "You's" thrown around in the previous post were of the general kind. If you had read my posts you would be aware that I am totally debt free.
All I am trying to say is that we would be in a better situation if we had more teachers/parent who were of mises' persuassion as opposed to the teachers I had growing up.
Expecting 17-19 year olds to be perfectly knowledgeable as to how the world works is a little disingenuous in my opinion. Especially when the education system has such a major slant to it. Or are you actually saying that by 19 you had it all down and had learned for yourself what and what not the education system had fed you was legit or not? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I hope all the "You's" thrown around in the previous post were of the general kind. If you had read my posts you would be aware that I am totally debt free.
All I am trying to say is that we would be in a better situation if we had more teachers/parent who were of mises' persuassion as opposed to the teachers I had growing up.
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Well I was always taught that it wasn't okay to abdicate a certain responsibility the moment it's inconvenient to carry out...I don't think those role models particularly harmed me. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
I hope all the "You's" thrown around in the previous post were of the general kind. If you had read my posts you would be aware that I am totally debt free.
All I am trying to say is that we would be in a better situation if we had more teachers/parent who were of mises' persuassion as opposed to the teachers I had growing up.
Expecting 17-19 year olds to be perfectly knowledgeable as to how the world works is a little disingenuous in my opinion. Especially when the education system has such a major slant to it. Or are you actually saying that by 19 you had it all down and had learned for yourself what and what not the education system had fed you was legit or not? |
I knew by 19 what interest was and could do basic math.
Yes 17-19 year olds should know what interest is and how to calculate it. As far as I can tell most High School Business classes warned people about the dangers of credit card debt and how to calculate interest. The fact that some people chose to skip class or sleep during class is what they get.
Mises is right. Unfortunately if he was a High School teacher it would be the same as the "slanted" teacher. No one would listen because he uses fancy words and everyone is too tired/stoned/horny to care.
Young people are stupid. It used to be that people as young as 13 were expected to act and think like adults, but then or whole softy values system took over and 16 year olds are treated as big infants.
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| I'm of the opinion that 3rd level education in the western world used to be about making sure that there was an educated class to keep the respective country moving in the right direction. To provide a country with a body of people equipped with the skills and expertize to keep the wheels turning...... |
Yes tis all the schools with their brainwashing...
I don't know about you, but I didn't get any brainwashing.
I got a bunch of teachers who were concerned about one thing: 5:00PM. and getting tenure and making it until retirement and not getting fired/sued for making a kid cry.
Please, if this is the evil corporation's 'brainwashing' effort its done by the same bumblers who gave us New Coke. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:15 am Post subject: |
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I think the world was a "simpler" place back in the day when 13 year olds were expected to act like an adult. Please note that I am by no way suggestion life was easier. It was probably much more difficult in fact.
Take over your dad's farm or business, work your ass off, and you could have been alright. For the majority of kids today, that world simply doesn't exist..for whatever reasons.
Yes we were taught how to calculated interest. Sadly that was about as far as it went. In my Ontario highschool business was an elective from grade 11. Business math, believe it or not, was a general level credit...for the dumb kids who couldn't get into the physics, bio and chem classes. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:42 am Post subject: |
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The problem is not that kids can't calculate interest; the problem is they can't get steady jobs with an income to pay back their loans.
The government, the bank, all the primary and seconday teachers who voiced the mantra, "go to college," parents - everyone assumed that there was a well paying job on the other end of graduation that would more than enough pay off the loans.
That was the bill of goods that was sold. And, that is the problem a large number of college graduates of the Great Recession are facing.
To quote a greater man than you Steelrails, "it is the economy, stupid." And, I would add the government, too.
Still, I would think twice before strategically defaulting. It may not be the panacea you think it is. It is a decision with a number of potentially negative consequences. But, if you think those consequences are better than paying back the loan, it is your choice and I hope you can live with it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
The problem is not that kids can't calculate interest; the problem is they can't get steady jobs with an income to pay back their loans.
The government, the bank, all the primary and seconday teachers who voiced the mantra, "go to college," parents - everyone assumed that there was a well paying job on the other end of graduation that would more than enough pay off the loans.
That was the bill of goods that was sold. And, that is the problem a large number of college graduates of the Great Recession are facing.
To quote a greater man than you Steelrails, "it is the economy, stupid." And, I would add the government, too.
Still, I would think twice before strategically defaulting. It may not be the panacea you think it is. It is a decision with a number of potentially negative consequences. But, if you think those consequences are better than paying back the loan, it is your choice and I hope you can live with it. |
So how exactly is the government supposed to provide those great jobs? Or corporations or society? Its easy to say that they should be able to "get those jobs". Please, outline your proposal. I'd love to hear it.
So the lenders lied about you being able to get a 'great job' after you do college and take out the loan. Fine.
Say they were upfront, and said that you could not go to college and take out a loan and have a 10% chance of making it. You could take out the loan and have a 35% chance of making it." Do you think that people wouldn't have taken out those loans and risked either way?
No, they still would have. Therefore whatever lies the government/society/lenders sold you is irrelevant. The course of action would have been the same.
You signed the dotted line. You knew the terms.
But hey, I guess contracts are just guidelines. Remember that when your Hagwon boss makes a decision based on "economic realities" and puts their financial welfare ahead of those who were sponsored by a corrupt system. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:00 am Post subject: |
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My problem with student loans is how they were presented to me. At the time, they were said to be easy to pay back, low interest, easily differed and often negotiable - they were anything but.
I paid back 32k, but there were far too many hoops. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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