Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

9 years, 2 wars, 100s of 1000s dead - and nothing learnt
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Edited. Useless bloviation.

Last edited by stilicho25 on Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The throatcutters were already loose. The Russians had a long running war with Moslem people in Russia, china has had a low grade war with Tajiks , Uighurs and Turks since th 80s and the Pakistan India feud has shifted to Afghanistan. Of course the Taliban was fighting the Northern alliance. the Kurds fighting Saddam ,the Turks, Syrians for a homeland. It is not all about Israel.

Atta was a political extremist, the politics may have derived from the religion but it was political.

Of course the heavy-handed inept invasion of Iraq by the U.s. did not help. It was an action taken by a intellectually limited president who was sold the idea of entering the region on our own terms and re fashioning the political culture of the area.


It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
I know. It's like this: A guy breaks into a house and kills the family less one son and the son hates the murderer because of a book he read once.


According to the Israeli apologist narrative: Arabs for centuries were all just chomping at the bit to murder Jews and Americans for no rational reason. And then, by total coincidence, an American-backed Jewish state was formed in the middle of the arab world, thus giving the arabs the opportunity to start killing Jews and Americans, which they'd been dreaming of all along.


Is it also the Israeli apologist narrative that the Arabs invaded Israel in 1948? And that both Syria and Jordan initially had plans to annex parts of what is now Palestine and prevent the formation of a Palestine state?


This would seem to prove that the Syrians and the Jordanians were not at the time motivated by sympathy for the Palestinians. It does not prove that they were motivated by long-standing Muslim anti-semtism.

If they were also hostile to a Palestinian state, then their main concern probably wasn't Jews specifically.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
rollo wrote:
It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship.


Definitely too simplistic. There's something to it, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel. And that's accepting Muslim extremist claims at face value.

For one, Al Qaeda wants the US in the Mid-East. This is, alone, a counterargument to reading too much into Mo' Atta's statements.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel


Atta wasn't motivated by the creation of Israel but by Israeli behavior. That doesn't in itself mean that all behavior that causes the reactions much be immediately stopped, but the consequences of the behavior must be considered when pondering the usefulness of the behavior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mises wrote:
Quote:
seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel


Atta wasn't motivated by the creation of Israel but by Israeli behavior. That doesn't in itself mean that all behavior that causes the reactions much be immediately stopped, but the consequences of the behavior must be considered when pondering the usefulness of the behavior.


You're right. I'll amend my statement.

There's something to damage stemming from the US-Israeli relationship, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel and its subsequent behavior, and possibly also the US's invasion of Iraq.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am not saying that Israli behavior and the U.s. support it recieves is not one of the root causes of the problems.

It is just that, that is the simplistic answer supplied by the media. Rather than look at a larger picture of indigeneous forces and the change and turmoil they cause. Just blaming the U.S and Israel makes it seem that local actors have no power or influence and that everything revolves around the West and it's actions. Also it is very easy to forget that other powers from outside the region are playing games , India, Russia, China , all dabble in the political arena there.

But the easy simplistic view will prevail, no doubt. Bad U.S. bad Israel! Go git em".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wai Mian



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: WE DIDNT
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rollo wrote:
I am not saying that Israli behavior and the U.s. support it recieves is not one of the root causes of the problems.

It is just that, that is the simplistic answer supplied by the media. Rather than look at a larger picture of indigeneous forces and the change and turmoil they cause. Just blaming the U.S and Israel makes it seem that local actors have no power or influence and that everything revolves around the West and it's actions. Also it is very easy to forget that other powers from outside the region are playing games , India, Russia, China , all dabble in the political arena there.

But the easy simplistic view will prevail, no doubt. Bad U.S. bad Israel! Go git em".


It's like the statement: "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"

The US and Israel are convenient scapegoats precisely because there is so much that the organizations and states of the Middle East can point to as legitimate gaffes/human rights violations.

It's too bad because most of the states in the regions are complete failures and are able to conceal some (but not all) of this behind a wall of knee-jerk simplistic anti-Americanism, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wai Mian wrote:
It's too bad because most of the states in the regions are complete failures and are able to conceal some (but not all) of this behind a wall of knee-jerk simplistic anti-Americanism, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.


A substantial amount of support for Islamic extremism lies in American support for monarchical or autocratic regimes. Nevertheless, opponents of American involvement in the Middle East naturally under-emphasize this factor. We know Al Qaeda wants to remake the Middle East. Many of the regimes in the Middle East are insufficiently religious for Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda struck the twin towers to spur an invasion. Meanwhile, those same regimes tolerate and even encourage a certain amount of anti-Americanism to take pressure off their own human rights failings.

I point this out not merely to put Israeli wrongs, and America's support of them, in perspective. I do it also to discredit the facile cui bono arguments of those who might suggest some 9-11 government cover up.

Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.

I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Happy Warrior