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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just curious, what does the F-series give besides renew-ability and freedom to choose employer? |
Renew-ability means no leaving the country as well as no need for excessive amounts of paperwork. so there are to conveniences there.
Freedom to choose employer and industry. If you want to work in Korea and not work in education, it is more difficult to get a job. it's much more difficult for Korean businesses to sponsor visas in other fields unless they're specialties as well as the ability to get a legal teaching/tutoring license, or easily work multiple jobs if you want.
You do also get some small increase in access to services. For example KT has set up global centers to service F-series (along with other foreigners on other visas, but E2 isn't one of the listed ones) |
In other words, you have the basic rights of a legal resident rather than an indentured migrant laborer. |
More or less, I'm not completely sure on all the various things having an f-series could potentially open up for someone. it's not like they have a list at immigration that says "You can now do X". |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I'm not an apologist or anything but here's my take on it
1) Other countries do this. I had to have 6 different blood tests to teach in Slovakia once. Aren't there some US companies that do this to their locally employed staff. Regular tests for alcohol/smoking/cannabis and the like? Statistically I imagine, you're far more likely to have the diseases they test for if you come from an English speaking country. However the employer should definitely pay for all your medical tests after they've accepted you for the job.
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Since there are running themes lets discuss them.
| Quote: |
| 1/ a. the visa process � having to prove that you do not have aids/hiv/ are a drug addict. Korean teachers do not have to prove this before working with children. This practice has been outlawed in most other countries in the last 10 years. |
The practice you refer to has been applied in Korea only in recent years. This practice while not present in every other country has not been outlawed in most other countries. Drug screenings and dangerous disease screening exists in many forms in many countries when it comes to either guest workers or immigrants.
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I've had to do health and drug tests to get a visa in other countries or to get a job. The problem with Korea is that you have to do the tests AFTER you get the visa. After you get the job. And most importantly, AFTER immigration has already let you in. And to add to it, Korean employees DON'T have to get these tests done.
In most of the world, definitely in first world countries, once you get a visa and enter the country, you get the same general rights as a local (within reason). In most other countries, if they have employment and immigration requirements then someone checks you out before allowing you in. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
I've had to do health and drug tests to get a visa in other countries or to get a job. The problem with Korea is that you have to do the tests AFTER you get the visa. After you get the job. And most importantly, AFTER immigration has already let you in. And to add to it, Korean employees DON'T have to get these tests done.
In most of the world, definitely in first world countries, once you get a visa and enter the country, you get the same general rights as a local (within reason). In most other countries, if they have employment and immigration requirements then someone checks you out before allowing you in. |
I seem to recall this coming up last year and several people mentioning that public school teachers have to get the tests done.
just not korean hagwon teachers. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. If you disagree, go and ask a South East Asian worker and see if they are getting similar benefits in the jobs they do. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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I hate that word. Unqualified. Okay bigshot, what would qualify one then? Define the word 'qualified'.
I read the list of requirements:
Be of able body
4 year BA degree or higher
Native English speaker from one of 7 countries
Well #1 is a given, I have a BA and I am from Canada. I guess I am qualified.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
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Satchel Paige
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| machoman wrote: |
| let me retract my white man is treated like a king here. a healthy, thin/athletic white male is treated like king here, at least by the girls. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrAHtjt2cqQ
Are you one of the guys in that video?? |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| BoholDiver wrote: |
I hate that word. Unqualified. Okay bigshot, what would qualify one then? Define the word 'qualified'.
I read the list of requirements:
Be of able body
4 year BA degree or higher
Native English speaker from one of 7 countries
Well #1 is a given, I have a BA and I am from Canada. I guess I am qualified.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
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You're somewhat missing the point. Do the majority of people FOB have teaching experience or not? Simple answer: no. Sure, you may be qualified by the standard set by immigration, but the reality is that unless you have the experience of EFL/ESL teaching and/or qualifications you're not particularly qualified to teach. In the same way that a S.E. Asian migrant needn't be qualified enough to work on machinery here, yet they can still get jobs doing just that. Some may come across and be fantastic teachers, but I'll bet that the majority are hopeless. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Is experience a requirement to get the job? No it isn't.
You're akin to saying you need a class 3 driver's licence to be a pizza delivery driver.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
I hate that word. Unqualified. Okay bigshot, what would qualify one then? Define the word 'qualified'.
I read the list of requirements:
Be of able body
4 year BA degree or higher
Native English speaker from one of 7 countries
Well #1 is a given, I have a BA and I am from Canada. I guess I am qualified.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
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You're somewhat missing the point. Do the majority of people FOB have teaching experience or not? Simple answer: no. Sure, you may be qualified by the standard set by immigration, but the reality is that unless you have the experience of EFL/ESL teaching and/or qualifications you're not particularly qualified to teach. In the same way that a S.E. Asian migrant needn't be qualified enough to work on machinery here, yet they can still get jobs doing just that. Some may come across and be fantastic teachers, but I'll bet that the majority are hopeless. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
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3/ no help with teaching/training/induction � the assumption that since youre a foreigner and you speak English � youre a natural born teacher!??? A lot people who come here have never worked full let alone taught. How can Korean hogwan bosses not realise this and offer more training. Koreans get training!.
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I really don't like this one.
I'm pretty sure everyone here thought themselves qualified and capable or else they would not have applied for the job.
I applied for that job believing I could walk in from day one and start teaching by myself. I got to do so on day three at Public School.
You said you were qualified in your resume. Sink or swim. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| BoholDiver wrote: |
Is experience a requirement to get the job? No it isn't.
You're akin to saying you need a class 3 driver's licence to be a pizza delivery driver.
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Is experience likely to make you a better teacher than someone FOB with no experience who then receives very little training when they arrive? More than likely. Having experience over someone FOB with no experience would make you better qualified in just about every other field in the world. Why should teaching or immigration's policy decide it to be different? In a technical sense, someone with a BA and no experience and someone with a BA and some experience might get treated by immigration as being the same, but they are, in the majority of cases, not. Besides, the chances are that people with qualifications or experience are likely to be better at the job than people with neither of those two.
Steelrails, but just because someone thinks they can teach, doesn't make it so. How effective in the classroom are the majority of people over here working as teachers? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I hate that word. Unqualified. Okay bigshot, what would qualify one then? Define the word 'qualified'. |
Qualified generally means someone who has the same qualifications as you. Unqualified means someone who hasn't. The majority of FOB teachers over here will be useless. But they often won't know they are because they never get observed by people who know what they're doing. Getting a 90 % score on an open class or having your principal tell you you're the best teacher in Kimchidong is not going to impress many people on a CV if you want to try for a proper TEFL job. As we all know from our school days, it's quite easy to be a useless teacher and get away with it for years. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I'm not an apologist or anything but here's my take on it
1) Other countries do this. I had to have 6 different blood tests to teach in Slovakia once. Aren't there some US companies that do this to their locally employed staff. Regular tests for alcohol/smoking/cannabis and the like? Statistically I imagine, you're far more likely to have the diseases they test for if you come from an English speaking country. However the employer should definitely pay for all your medical tests after they've accepted you for the job.
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Since there are running themes lets discuss them.
| Quote: |
| 1/ a. the visa process � having to prove that you do not have aids/hiv/ are a drug addict. Korean teachers do not have to prove this before working with children. This practice has been outlawed in most other countries in the last 10 years. |
The practice you refer to has been applied in Korea only in recent years. This practice while not present in every other country has not been outlawed in most other countries. Drug screenings and dangerous disease screening exists in many forms in many countries when it comes to either guest workers or immigrants.
|
I've had to do health and drug tests to get a visa in other countries or to get a job. The problem with Korea is that you have to do the tests AFTER you get the visa. After you get the job. And most importantly, AFTER immigration has already let you in. And to add to it, Korean employees DON'T have to get these tests done.
In most of the world, definitely in first world countries, once you get a visa and enter the country, you get the same general rights as a local (within reason). In most other countries, if they have employment and immigration requirements then someone checks you out before allowing you in. |
So this all about sequence. If the tests were required as part of visa issuance (before you enter Korea) you would be fine with it?
As for your rights as a foreign worker after you enter Korea...you do get the same general rights a korean national does. You will however have certain restrictions due to the fact you are on there on a short term sponsored work visa. That seems rather normal and is also par for the course in first world countries. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
Steelrails, but just because someone thinks they can teach, doesn't make it so. How effective in the classroom are the majority of people over here working as teachers? |
Well they shouldn't be upset at 'Korea' for their lack of ability if they believed they had the ability at the start. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well they shouldn't be upset at 'Korea' for their lack of ability if they believed they had the ability at the start. |
They are entitled to feel upset at Korea. Because if Korea are going to employ teachers with no experience or qualifications they should eitther give them proper training when they arrive or be more understanding when they're useless and not sack them after poor evaluations. They can't have it both ways. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I'm not an apologist or anything but here's my take on it
1) Other countries do this. I had to have 6 different blood tests to teach in Slovakia once. Aren't there some US companies that do this to their locally employed staff. Regular tests for alcohol/smoking/cannabis and the like? Statistically I imagine, you're far more likely to have the diseases they test for if you come from an English speaking country. However the employer should definitely pay for all your medical tests after they've accepted you for the job.
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Since there are running themes lets discuss them.
| Quote: |
| 1/ a. the visa process � having to prove that you do not have aids/hiv/ are a drug addict. Korean teachers do not have to prove this before working with children. This practice has been outlawed in most other countries in the last 10 years. |
The practice you refer to has been applied in Korea only in recent years. This practice while not present in every other country has not been outlawed in most other countries. Drug screenings and dangerous disease screening exists in many forms in many countries when it comes to either guest workers or immigrants.
|
I've had to do health and drug tests to get a visa in other countries or to get a job. The problem with Korea is that you have to do the tests AFTER you get the visa. After you get the job. And most importantly, AFTER immigration has already let you in. And to add to it, Korean employees DON'T have to get these tests done.
In most of the world, definitely in first world countries, once you get a visa and enter the country, you get the same general rights as a local (within reason). In most other countries, if they have employment and immigration requirements then someone checks you out before allowing you in. |
So this all about sequence. If the tests were required as part of visa issuance (before you enter Korea) you would be fine with it?
As for your rights as a foreign worker after you enter Korea...you do get the same general rights a korean national does. You will however have certain restrictions due to the fact you are on there on a short term sponsored work visa. That seems rather normal and is also par for the course in first world countries. |
I'm not sure this is technically true. Check out a copy of the Korean Constitution - Rights and Duties of Citizens and compare those rights guaranteed to CITIZENS vs. the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (for example) where many of the rights are guaranteed to EVERYONE.
Korea: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_South_Korea#CHAPTER_II._RIGHTS_AND_DUTIES_OF_CITIZENS
Canada: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html#anchorbo-ga:l_I-gb:s_1
Now, it could be a translation error, but I have checked several sources and they all have the same wording. Food for thought anyway. |
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