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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| Well they shouldn't be upset at 'Korea' for their lack of ability if they believed they had the ability at the start. |
They are entitled to feel upset at Korea. Because if Korea are going to employ teachers with no experience or qualifications they should eitther give them proper training when they arrive or be more understanding when they're useless and not sack them after poor evaluations. They can't have it both ways. |
This. The training I received when I first got my first job as a pot wash in a restaurant when I was 12 was better than the training I received when I moved to Korea to teach English. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well they shouldn't be upset at 'Korea' for their lack of ability if they believed they had the ability at the start. |
They are entitled to feel upset at Korea. Because if Korea are going to employ teachers with no experience or qualifications they should eitther give them proper training when they arrive or be more understanding when they're useless and not sack them after poor evaluations. They can't have it both ways. |
This. The training I received when I first got my first job as a pot wash in a restaurant when I was 12 was better than the training I received when I moved to Korea to teach English. |
Yep, edwardcatflap nailed it. When I first started looking for jobs here, I saw so many job adverts which clearly stated "No Experience Necessary! Degree in ANY subject required. " |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well they shouldn't be upset at 'Korea' for their lack of ability if they believed they had the ability at the start. |
They are entitled to feel upset at Korea. Because if Korea are going to employ teachers with no experience or qualifications they should eitther give them proper training when they arrive or be more understanding when they're useless and not sack them after poor evaluations. They can't have it both ways. |
This. The training I received when I first got my first job as a pot wash in a restaurant when I was 12 was better than the training I received when I moved to Korea to teach English. |
Yep, edwardcatflap nailed it. When I first started looking for jobs here, I saw so many job adverts which clearly stated "No Experience Necessary! Degree in ANY subject required. " |
Yeah, and then AES and other idiots complain about "unqualified foreign teachers" |
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SinclairLondon
Joined: 17 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Is it just me or Koreans seem to treat foreigners worse than they would people from their own culture?. |
According to the author of Holidays in Hell, Yes. And No.
"They don't like one who isn't Korean, and they don't like each other all that much either."
For more inappropriate humor, check out his book (written 1988).
For me, Koreans comment on everything. "Oh, cold. Oh, hot. Oh, raining. Oh, foreigner. Oh, delicious. Oh, annoying. Oh, make me crazy" And staring is just a nonspoken form of this inane and repetitive response to changes in the environment.
But it can be invasive, and perceived as rude, especially to Koreans returning from abroad.
My student atttended HS in Seoul, Uni in France, now back in this city for a few months. Having no friends here, she goes to musicals by herself. But everytime, some stranger has to comment that she doesnt have friends ora boyfriend and thats why she is sitting alone.
Its provincial, but nothing like what I've heard back home.
Off the top of my head, One black kid to a mixed black/korean kid: "Shut up or I'm going to knock the Asian out of you."
And thats nothing compared to the racial slurs my peers used in HS, or any of the Asian, Italian, Black, Polish and Jew jokes I heard from my uncles at family reunions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I for one do not want the same duties as a Korean citizen because I would be required to engage in compulsory military duty, therefore I do not complain that I have to take a drug/HIV test if I want to work at a Hagwon. Seems like a sweet bargain to me.
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| ep, edwardcatflap nailed it. When I first started looking for jobs here, I saw so many job adverts which clearly stated "No Experience Necessary! Degree in ANY subject required. " |
If the OP is working for one of those places and wrote on their application essay that they were 'bad with children' and 'utterly clueless as to how to teach' then they'd have a point.
But I don't think too many of us did that. We talked ourselves up.
I will say that I have more patience for this frustration for public school teachers. Public Schools are part of a governmental program and should have training in line with government standards.
Hagwons are private companies so they should be able to hold one more accountable to their claim that they are 'open-minded', 'able to adapt to other cultures', and 'work well with children of all ages' and have them hit the ground running. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I for one do not want the same duties as a Korean citizen because I would be required to engage in compulsory military duty, therefore I do not complain that I have to take a drug/HIV test if I want to work at a Hagwon. Seems like a sweet bargain to me.
| Quote: |
| ep, edwardcatflap nailed it. When I first started looking for jobs here, I saw so many job adverts which clearly stated "No Experience Necessary! Degree in ANY subject required. " |
If the OP is working for one of those places and wrote on their application essay that they were 'bad with children' and 'utterly clueless as to how to teach' then they'd have a point.
But I don't think too many of us did that. We talked ourselves up.
I will say that I have more patience for this frustration for public school teachers. Public Schools are part of a governmental program and should have training in line with government standards.
Hagwons are private companies so they should be able to hold one more accountable to their claim that they are 'open-minded', 'able to adapt to other cultures', and 'work well with children of all ages' and have them hit the ground running. |
Wow. THAT was some selective reading. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: |
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As usual I haven't actually read the original post, but I get the idea that they think koreans treat foreigners badly, or something. Compraed to themselves.
I, so far, get treated in general better by koreans than people back in England. Even today when I got yelled at for throwing my umbrella in a waste bag that wasn't mine, I said sorry and he patted me on the back and smiled and went on his way.
I'd get beaten to a pulp in England.
The rest of the time everybody is nothing but polite and nice. Maybe it's my charming good lucks. (no spelling error) |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: |
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I heard stories about people running what could only be described as "homestay farms". They'd get some deal with a language school, and maybe they had a basement or something they turned into a few rooms and would get as many people as they could doing "homestay" there.
The result was them get hundreds of dollars per adult (not kids), spending the money on their actual kids and then feeding the homestay people the same cheap bulk spaghetti and no-name sauce every night and grilled cheese sandwiches every day for lunch. The families would then turn around and time their showers and not let them use any of the things their fees paid for, like say the big TV they'd just bought.
Most of these people ended up dumping homestay after a month or so and getting together in groups of 3 or 4 and renting apartments. |
I had to deal with hundreds of complaining adult students about the above situation at my last part-time evening job. The thing is, in pretty much every case it was a first generation right off the boat Korean, Philippino, Vietnamese, Indian or Chinese family trying to pull this stunt (many were Koreans trying to get Korean ESL students). I couldn't really blame them because they are trying to pay off an 800 grand plus mortgage for a crappy 3bdr house in order to send their kids to UBC. Students also complained about not being able to speak English with a Canadian that was either born or had lived in Canada for a long time. They paid a lot of money to come to Vancouver and learn English so their complaints were valid and as a result we had to blacklist a lot of home-stay families. None of the blacklisted families were native Canadians though.
My point is that of course Canadians can treat immigrants like crap. The above situation however, in my experience, isn't a really good example of this. For Korean students, it was mostly Korean first generation immigrants trying to screw ESL Korean students. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: |
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If the OP is working for one of those places and wrote on their application essay that they were 'bad with children' and 'utterly clueless as to how to teach' then they'd have a point.
But I don't think too many of us did that. We talked ourselves up.
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Of course you did and you might have been telling the truth when you said you were 'good with kids' meaning you could play a bit of football and hold a 3 minute conversation with your 5 year old nephew and you could correct him when he used a past tense wrongly.
However, If the school had asked you if you could plan a lesson around two pages in a poorly written Korean course book and keep 30 10 year olds engaged and occupied with a variety of properly sequenced language activities for 45 minutes, you would probably have answered no. That's probably why they didn't ask you questions like that and that's why they can't really complain about poor teachers. |
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Wai Mian
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: WE DIDNT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
However, If the school had asked you if you could plan a lesson around two pages in a poorly written Korean course book and keep 30 10 year olds engaged and occupied with a variety of properly sequenced language activities for 45 minutes, you would probably have answered no. That's probably why they didn't ask you questions like that and that's why they can't really complain about poor teachers. |
Exactly, when I remember the questions SMOE's recruiter asked me, they revolved solely on how well I connected with young learners on a personal level in my previous education experience. Not once was I asked about classroom management, elicitation, error correction, adaptability to curriculum, teaching absolute or false beginners, etc. It's not so obvious what Korea wants from its teachers, but it's quite obvious how little Korea wants to take responsibility for its mismanagement of its own ESL industry. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. If you disagree, go and ask a South East Asian worker and see if they are getting similar benefits in the jobs they do. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
Do you think that you are getting those benefits out of the kindness of some hogwan owner's heart? Or some kind hearted government official?
All of those benefits are given because it's necessary. Either it's a legal requirement or it's the bare minimum that they need to offer in order to get us here. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| All of those benefits are given because it's necessary. Either it's a legal requirement or it's the bare minimum that they need to offer in order to get us here. |
Then again, what country or employer offers benefits to employees or immigrants\guest workers out of kindness? I mean this is like saying water is wet. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| If only other countries treated foreigners as well as Koreans do. I don't see many other countries providing foreigners with decent, free accommodation, relatively decent paid jobs, low taxation, short hours, end of year bonuses, and free return flights to people who are, for the most part, under/unqualified to do their jobs. If anything, I think we are treated better than just about any other groups of migrants in the world. If you disagree, go and ask a South East Asian worker and see if they are getting similar benefits in the jobs they do. Sure, crappy things happen to foreigners here and certain things are a pain in the neck (visa regulations, etc.), but it pales in comparison to the treatment of most foreigners in the world. It's all relative. |
Do you think that you are getting those benefits out of the kindness of some hogwan owner's heart? Or some kind hearted government official?
All of those benefits are given because it's necessary. Either it's a legal requirement or it's the bare minimum that they need to offer in order to get us here. |
Yeah, those benefits are mostly offered because very few of us can afford jeonse, and they need to dangle some carrots to discourage us from pulling midnight runners when we find out the downsides of working in Korea |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
Do you think that you are getting those benefits out of the kindness of some hogwan owner's heart? Or some kind hearted government official?
All of those benefits are given because it's necessary. Either it's a legal requirement or it's the bare minimum that they need to offer in order to get us here. |
Yeah, those benefits are mostly offered because very few of us can afford jeonse, and they need to dangle some carrots to discourage us from pulling midnight runners when we find out the downsides of working in Korea |
Regardless, I don't see most other low-skilled migrant workers in Korea receiving the same benefits. Perhaps you'd like to pay for your flight, pay rent (out of the mediocre salaries that most other low-skilled migrants earn here) or live in the provided accommodation which, judging by the corrugated shack that 12 Filipino farm workers live in 5 minutes from me, wouldn't be all that great. The lowest salary one can earn in Korea on the minimum wage is pathetically low. I'd bet as sure as hell that a fairly significant number of low-skilled migrants are earning close to this or slightly above this. Sure, those benefits are mostly government implemented, but very few countries (if any) make bonuses a legal part of the contract, and if they do, I doubt low-skilled migrant workers feature in that equation at all.
If anyone says we are not treated well as migrants, then they really haven't got a clue about the treatment of other migrants in Korea or in other parts of the world. For further proof of this, go on Google and search for the story on how a group of S.E Asian workers in Singapore were locked in a cage for 3 months because they had the audacity to ask for their salaries which they hadn't received in some time. Has anyone on this board dealt with being locked in a cage by a hagwon owner? No, didn't think so.
I bet if you asked most other migrants in Korea whether they'd like to teach their language in a relatively comfortable classroom over working a 3Ds job, they'd jump at the chance.
Christ, I'm sounding like an apologist. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Wai Mian wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
However, If the school had asked you if you could plan a lesson around two pages in a poorly written Korean course book and keep 30 10 year olds engaged and occupied with a variety of properly sequenced language activities for 45 minutes, you would probably have answered no. That's probably why they didn't ask you questions like that and that's why they can't really complain about poor teachers. |
Exactly, when I remember the questions SMOE's recruiter asked me, they revolved solely on how well I connected with young learners on a personal level in my previous education experience. Not once was I asked about classroom management, elicitation, error correction, adaptability to curriculum, teaching absolute or false beginners, etc. It's not so obvious what Korea wants from its teachers, but it's quite obvious how little Korea wants to take responsibility for its mismanagement of its own ESL industry. |
Seems like both Koreans AND NETs want to avoid taking responsibility for the mismanagement of things. I agree that the Korean Public schools could do things better and I agree that certain Hagwons could screen and prepare their teachers in a better fashion. However that does not excuse the failures of responsibility of certain NETs who were ill-equipped and ill-prepared.
Unlike apparently a majority of posters here, I actually researched things and signed up for a TESOL course before I started this gig. I did things such as researching the job.
What did you think this job entailed when you signed up?
Schools have lesson plans and a curriculum. Classrooms, gasp, you have to manage. Not all students are angels. Students get bored. Students make mistakes. Children are children.
I mean most of the 'problems' listed should have been understood with a little, ahem, critical thinking. |
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