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The Blacklist

 
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Scottie Alan



Joined: 26 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:46 am    Post subject: The Blacklist Reply with quote

I have read before in forums about the hagwon blacklist. Is this a real thing that would send shivers down a hagwon director's spine if they were on it? I want to pursue getting my recently-turned former hagwon on it, and want a little info:
1. Who maintains it?
2. What are the consequences of being on it?
3. How do I go about getting a school on it?

Wish me luck, I head to the Labor Office tomorrow for a "get my money back" meeting.

Happily at a new job Smile
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post, browser froze...

Last edited by jrwhite82 on Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple of blacklists if you just do a google search. They are managed by whoever sets it up. Usually a disgruntled ex employee. They then stay up for as long as the bitterness lasts in the ex-employee. Then once they finally get over how they were screwed and/or grow up (depending on the situation) the site is no longer maintained. A lot of blacklists have come and gone. None are official and none are totally comprehensive.

If you had a bad experience and were legitimately screwed, post your story on the Korea Job-Related board. In the title, post the Hagwon's name so others that are smart enough can come here and search it before they sign a contract with them.

Be careful threatening with blacklists for two reasons. I'm far from a lawyer, but their might be a clause in your contract that says you aren't allowed to share the details of your employment with other parties. If that's the case, forget about getting any money owed to you if it is discovered that you did share info about your employer. Secondly, there is supposedly an ESL Teacher Blacklist that is shared amongst many recruiters and schools. You might find yourself on that as retaliation if you threaten with a Hagwon Blacklist, which will just make your life more difficult if you plan on staying or coming back to Korea.

Also, it will not send a shiver down an owner's spine. The market is flooded with teachers now. Like it or not, we are more expendable now then we've ever been. Especially if you lack experience and/or a pretty face.

Just post your story here to help other teachers avoid the situation you got stuck in. Don't do it out of vengeance. Do it to help the ESL Korea teacher community.
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Troglodyte



Joined: 06 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The teacher blacklist used by recruiters and schools is most definitely real. If you're interested, check out this thread.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2393946

If you want to view the actual blacklist, you have to pay to sign up.

As already mentioned, there are many hogwan blacklists. None are worth posting to because none of them are maintained. If someone were to create an automated site where people could submit their comments and report schools, then it would probably remain up to date but as it is, they don't.

Korea has very strong laws about what you can say to discredit someone (libel/slander). Even if it's true, you can't usually say it in public. If you are still pursuing the school in court or at the labor board, don't post your blacklist report yet. Wait until your case is settled. Otherwise it can come back and bite you in the backside.


But once you're case is finished, post the name of the school here and a description of your problems with them. Try to mention also the names of people involved (owner, manager, recruiter, etc). Sometimes schools close and reopen under a new name. So knowing the name of the owner and the city helps in these cases.

Dave's doesn't have a blacklist, but lots of people check here and can use the search function (or google a search on Dave's) and find your post here.
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StMichael



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: ESLLIST.com Reply with quote

ESL List (http://ESLLIST.com) has been up for a while and is actively maintained. I happen to know the group who built the site, so it's safe for me to say it'll be around for a while.

Their goal is to help promote the good schools out there and warn about the bad ones.

In it's previous life, it was http://ESLblacklist.com. But, now it's moved to more robust format... ESLLIST.com
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interestedinhanguk



Joined: 23 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many of the negative postings about schools or recruiters get deleted from these forums. That is because they often advertise on this site. Dave wants to protect them.

Anyways, I don't think the blacklists do a whole lot of helps. Well, you might save a few people who are bright enough to look. But most teachers just come here without doing any research.
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Troglodyte



Joined: 06 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is ESL LIST automated? Or does it require an actual person to maintain it? If the site can run on it's own, and people can continue to post reviews, then it will probably be around for a while. Otherwise, it will end up running for a couple years until the admin get tired of running it and stop updating it - same as every other blacklist site.
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StMichael



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: ESL List Reply with quote

ESL List (http://ESLLIST.com) is automated.

Anyone can submit a new location and/or a review. Schools are able to "claim" their location and manage only the basic info (address/phone...), but can never edit or delete reviews. However, anyone can comment on reviews.

ESL List will never remove any locations or reviews unless the person who submitted them requests it (once they've proven to be the reviewer).
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could post on here warning folk with details of why, name of hogwan, location etc - and keep re-posting until you get bored.
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StMichael



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject: ESL List Reply with quote

haha... no repeat reviews for the same school. Reviews are checked against username and IP.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troglodyte wrote:

Korea has very strong laws about what you can say to discredit someone (libel/slander). Even if it's true, you can't usually say it in public.


How is it then that the Koreans get away with having a teacher blacklist?

I've seen that site. They character-assasinate foreigners on a whim. All you'd have to do to get on there is piss off a co-teacher by asking them to actually pitch up to class.
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interestedinhanguk



Joined: 23 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
Troglodyte wrote:

Korea has very strong laws about what you can say to discredit someone (libel/slander). Even if it's true, you can't usually say it in public.


How is it then that the Koreans get away with having a teacher blacklist?

I've seen that site. They character-assasinate foreigners on a whim. All you'd have to do to get on there is piss off a co-teacher by asking them to actually pitch up to class.


please understand Korea culture.
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Troglodyte



Joined: 06 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
Troglodyte wrote:

Korea has very strong laws about what you can say to discredit someone (libel/slander). Even if it's true, you can't usually say it in public.


How is it then that the Koreans get away with having a teacher blacklist?

I've seen that site. They character-assasinate foreigners on a whim. All you'd have to do to get on there is piss off a co-teacher by asking them to actually pitch up to class.


The site used to be open for anyone to view the list. Now you have to be a paying member (and maybe they have some other form of verification as well) before letting you view the list. At present, ANYONE can submit a review of a teacher to the list without verifying identity (e.g. a co-worker, an ex-girlfriend, a student who didn't like his grade, etc.) and there is really no way of knowing whether the person who submitted the review really was the teachers employer. In the past, when the site was list was public, teachers DID complain about it, and lawyers would write them a letter asking that the teacher in question be removed. And those teachers were removed. But then they got clever and made the list only available to paying members. So..... to even know if you're on the list, you have to at least become a paid member - then you can get a lawyer to write them a letter asking for you to be removed from the list.

It think that it's just as illegal for the schools and recruiters to blacklist teachers as it is for us to blacklist them. The big difference though is that very few teachers complain about it (except on internet forum). At most, they have a lawyer write a letter to the admin of the site asking to be removed. To my knowledge (which isn't extensive, so don't take it as gospel) no foreign teacher has tried taking to court the association that runs the list.
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