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Is it sometimes better to exclude your experience?

 
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DosEquisXX



Joined: 04 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Is it sometimes better to exclude your experience? Reply with quote

I know it sounds like a weird question. Logically, having experience means you know what you are doing and are likely better at your job. So, you should be easier for you to find a job. You would provide a high quality and improve the education that students would receive.

But it seems to be different with some hagwons. I think there are many hagwons who want people without any work experience. People with experience know what they want, what to ask for, demand higher pay and are more likely to know when they are being screwed. Thus, you are harder to control and more inclined to run when things go to shit. People with less experience are easier to control, cost less and are less likely to know when they are being screwed.

Or they really want experienced teachers that know that they are being screwed and don't complain about it.

Is that the type of worker a hagwon wants? Somebody who does their job and never complains no matter how unfair things are?

Ultimately, should teachers interested in teaching in Korea market themselves to be this way to better their chances at getting a job?


Last edited by DosEquisXX on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were a boss & detected evidence of the attitude expressed above, I wouldnt hire you.
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DosEquisXX



Joined: 04 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
If I were a boss & detected evidence of the attitude expressed above, I wouldnt hire you.


Yes, I was too harsh. Some of my comments were definitely uncalled for.

But I've heard of people hiding their experience to increase the chances of getting a job. I don't understand punishing people for having experience.

There are definitely academies that don't do this, but sometimes cynicism gets the better of me when the prerequisites of hiring for some academies are your gender, looks and whether or not you are interesting.

And my question still stands. Are people with good standing and solid experience better off not revealing it to hagwons?


Last edited by DosEquisXX on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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sulperman



Joined: 14 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most hagwons want the opposite of whatever has screwed them in the past. If they had a bad employee that was old, then no more old-timers. If they had bad experiences with experienced teachers, they will stick with newbies. If they have had bad experiences with newbies, then they will go for experience. If they had bad experiences with guys they might only hire women, and vice versa.

It might make more sense to choose each candidate based on references, real interviews, and so on, but that would be too much work, apparently.
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DosEquisXX



Joined: 04 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sulperman wrote:
Most hagwons want the opposite of whatever has screwed them in the past. If they had a bad employee that was old, then no more old-timers. If they had bad experiences with experienced teachers, they will stick with newbies. If they have had bad experiences with newbies, then they will go for experience. If they had bad experiences with guys they might only hire women, and vice versa.


I move all-in preflop in a poker hand with pocket aces. My opponents turns over ace-king and wins the pot by hitting a straight. Should I never move all-in preflop with pocket aces because I lost that single hand?

The logic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. One male teacher doesn't mean that all male teachers suck. Just that one teacher was bad at their job. This isn't implying that men > women. All it says is that if a situation is highly likely to provide a positive output, then changing just because of one rotten apple would be a mistake.

It's disheartening to see my friends have trouble finding a job while others who are fresh off the boat get one without a problem. Maybe it's luck or that FOAB folks are less picky, but it disappoints me to see qualified workers struggling for jobs while less qualified people are being hired.


Last edited by DosEquisXX on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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thegadfly



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it is true that "experience" in Korea can make you less desirable to some schools, the reason for that has to do with attitudes shown by people with such "experience," not the experience itself. For example, your assumption out of the box that you are "being screwed."

Agree with sulperman -- whatever screwed the school over last is what the school tries to avoid next.

If you have good references from your last school (or few schools?), then having experience is definitely a good thing. If your "experience" consists of 3 broken contracts, one of which was a runner in the first month, and no completed contracts, then yeah, keep your "experience" to yourself, because it WILL hurt you if you are lucky enough to be interviewing for a decent job.

If you have finished a contract (or more) at the same place, and they can say you were a decent teacher, then it is a plus. If your last boss "has it in for you," there is probably a reason for it that will give a new employer pause....
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thegadfly



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DosEquisXX wrote:
sulperman wrote:
Most hagwons want the opposite of whatever has screwed them in the past. If they had a bad employee that was old, then no more old-timers. If they had bad experiences with experienced teachers, they will stick with newbies. If they have had bad experiences with newbies, then they will go for experience. If they had bad experiences with guys they might only hire women, and vice versa.


I move all-in preflop in a poker hand with pocket aces. My opponents turns over ace-king and wins the pot by hitting a straight. Should I never move all-in preflop with pocket aces because I lost that hand?


Sulperman is not saying that this is the CORRECT thing to do, or the LOGICAL thing to do -- he is saying that this type of reaction is common among administrators in Korean schools -- and I would agree. I have seen it everywhere I have been -- whatever burned them last is what the school avoids next. It ain't right, but it is true....
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DosEquisXX



Joined: 04 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thegadfly wrote:
While it is true that "experience" in Korea can make you less desirable to some schools, the reason for that has to do with attitudes shown by people with such "experience," not the experience itself. For example, your assumption out of the box that you are "being screwed.


I guess the question is what it is the priority of the academy. Is it profit by marketing an image or profit through providing a quality education?

Maybe the former costs less, is easier to produce and has faster results. Perhaps quality education is something that is not seen until years after an academy is formed and its customers show the results of their education in the real world. I'm not a businessman. Perhaps my mind is not driven by the almighty dollar (or won) like many are. It's just that such an idea is frustrating.

Though maybe they are just doing you a favor by showing you a workplace that you do not want to work at. I'm sort of rambling now. Sorry for the vitrol show in my original post. Just how I felt at the time.
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littlelisa



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An academy that doesn't want me because of my experience is an academy I don't want to work for anyway.
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thegadfly



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dos,

Working in Korea makes many people bitter or jaded (your own venting illustrates this point).

Most places do not want to hire bitter or jaded teachers.

Therefore, some (many?) places may be leery of "experienced" teachers.

Honestly, at my school, experience in Korea is seen as both a positive and a negative, whereas experience teaching in one's home country is only seen as a positive.

The school I am at is willing to pay more for experienced teachers, but seeks to avoid cynical, bitter, jaded, entitled people looking to skate along on the least effort possible in the classroom. Also, unfortunately, a noticable portion of "experienced" teachers who have spent time in Korea decide to skate along on the least work possible....

It isn't always about the money -- in some cases it is about the attitude, approach, work ethic, and office morale. One skater in the staffroom hurts the whole school.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thegadfly wrote:
Dos,

Working in Korea makes many people bitter or jaded (your own venting illustrates this point).

Most places do not want to hire bitter or jaded teachers.

Therefore, some (many?) places may be leery of "experienced" teachers.

Honestly, at my school, experience in Korea is seen as both a positive and a negative, whereas experience teaching in one's home country is only seen as a positive.

The school I am at is willing to pay more for experienced teachers, but seeks to avoid cynical, bitter, jaded, entitled people looking to skate along on the least effort possible in the classroom. Also, unfortunately, a noticable portion of "experienced" teachers who have spent time in Korea decide to skate along on the least work possible....

It isn't always about the money -- in some cases it is about the attitude, approach, work ethic, and office morale. One skater in the staffroom hurts the whole school.


This is very true.


Dos, not including some of your past employment history on your resume is a tricky proposition.

On the one hand it may help you avoid questions about a previous job you have no references from. However, the flip side of this is that it leaves a hole in your employment history. Now, some employers when looking at a resume will wonder about that gap and ask you what you were doing for that period of time. Say the gap is 1 year or more, that sends red flags.

On to the larger issue of employment for experienced teachers in Korea. The job market in Korea is like anywhere else, it is divided in sections and ESL is no exception.

You have entry-level jobs that prefer to hire inexperienced teachers for many reasons (financial, management, aim of the hiring program, duties required). Then you have employers that prefer experienced teachers and demand higher qualifications. These employers typically choose to advertise in select places to avoid the flood of applications from people who are inexperienced but who are 'taking a shot at getting this job'.

Some of the better jobs are not advertised at all, the employer prefering referals.

As an experienced teacher, what you need to do is find jobs where your experience will be valued and where you will haev a an advantage. With experience, applying for an entry level position is akin to lacing up some lead boots and jumping into the ocean. Your employment chances will sink into the abyss faster than the Titanic.

How do you access better jobs?

Gain valuable experience (get references)
Build your Teacher's portfolio (activities you designed)
Upgrade your qualifications ( a couple of courses here and there in the field of education, pedagogy, classroom management...).
Network (attend conferences if you can (ex: KOTESOL), meet people in hiring positions, keep cordial working relations with your co-workers and employers).
Research the field while you work (keep on the lookout for job advertisements as some of the better jobs do advertise when referals do not work).
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nfld_chingu



Joined: 29 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having experience in Korea kind of prevented me from getting a 2nd job in Korea initially, but I just put a lot more time and effort into my job search and ended up getting a much better job. My boss at my 1st hagwon job (who was a foreigner) was a complete psycho and the most unprofessional person I've ever met. I went above and beyond for the school, but he still "had it in" for me, and several other teachers as well. When the time came for me to look for another job in Korea, I know that he received calls from other schools because he told people that I know (despite me never listing him as a reference or telling anyone that it was ok to call that school) so yeah it took me a much longer time to find a good job. Also, my first year in Korea I had taken the first job I was offered (I was fresh out of school and didn't know any better). But anyway things worked out in the end, I'm returning to my 2nd job for a 2nd year after Christmas. And the 1st hagwon boss was eventually fired.
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