Korean Job Discussion Forums

rapier · Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Urb: I agree to a point that it was lazy of me not to get notarised certificate copies. But in london, this process was expensive and time consuming. One particular "Justice of the peace" wanted 45 pound sterling for the service. Another time i waited the whole afternoon at the law courts for a copy, and was tols to come back again later. Even then, they'd stamped the wrong ones... After all that, when i first came to korea, the recruiter told me that NOTHING LESS than the actual originals were acceptable, for the visa processing...My first employer didn't attempt to hold on to my certs, the second did and actually framed them and put them up in his office. Whereupon I had to take them back while he was out and replace them with photocopies. Another teacher had his certificate folded and "trimmed".

Anyway, my point is that westerners put faith in their employers and simply don't expect Korean style underhandedness. Does that put them in the wrong, for expecting reasonable treatment from an educational employer?
Whose fault is all this poor treatment? Theirs or ours? If someone hits you on the head from behind, do you immediately say "That was my fault, I should have eyes in the back of my head"?

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

Let me see- do I have it right? Your position Homer (Gord, Austin???) is:

Gord · Joined: 25 Feb 2003

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

Ahhh-haaaa- sounds simple. Why is it that stories of teachers having someone phone immigration to block them keep popping up. (Or the threat of litigation to tie them up for months in legal battle.) Those teachers must be:

a. liars
b. imaginative
c. off medication
d. trolling

Doubt it Gord. Let's face it- people on Nanny programs have an easier time. At least they can give notice (in country)- submit the invitation to work at another place- and presto- they get it.

I guess if teacher ____ quits after a month of getting ________ed- teacher _______ only has to wait 11 months outside of the country- supposing that masser didn't pulls strings with immigration to get him/her blocked- to get back in. "Oh- teacher ________ didn't pay his bills. He/she said Korea is evil. And he/she broke the law. He must be banned- as a nice dinner party is thrown for his immigration buddy a few days later." Sounds like masser has his way- yet- again.

Anyway- you can refuse the term slave if you want- what you can't do is deny that containing teachers is done through:

* threats
* physical violence
* thefts
* the Korean police
* immigration
* screaming
* spying

and a vast list of other ways they use to "contain" the teacher.

rapier · Joined: 16 Feb 2003

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

Gord · Joined: 25 Feb 2003

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

There are three- even as the clock ticks- I would wager are daily happenings:

* somebody today is experiencing a theft (with-held monies or otherwise)

* somebody today is getting the vocal gears

* somebody today is being spied on (directly or indirectly) most likely by other staff members. "Teacher says she doesn't eat meat." "Teacher said he doesn't like the smell of Kimchi." "Teacher said he's running tonight."

That is- assuming they are working today. Let's pretend it's Monday- will we?

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

Incase Gord, Homer, TUM (ohhhh Austin??? where are you???) forget:

It's kind of pathetic that it comes to: teacher questioning how nice he/she should be when the industry as a whole has rarely blinked at screwing the teachers. Again- most westerners have just been too nice all these years in Korea. I'm trying to think of one- just one advantage in teachers giving notice. The scenarios are like this:

A. Teacher gives notice: owner and staff make him/her emotionally pay for the next 1-2 months for the "betrayal."

B. Teacher gives notice: owner conjures up bills with numerical distortions

C. Teacher gives notice: owner begins a court of discovery to see where teacher is going so he can phone in advance and insure teacher won't get the job

D. Teacher gives notice: owner hardens his heart towards final pay before final pay comes

E. Teacher gives notice: owner magically disappears the last days when it's pay-time

F. Teacher gives notice: owner sometimes shortens teacher's stay by firing as soon as the replacement comes

rapier · Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Gord, homer, and urban are useful on here because they play devils' advocate, defending the indefensible and arguing black is white.
Obviously, they don't sincerely believe their own words.... Wink

Nobody who has taught in korea for more than- a day, without a blindfold on, would back those views....

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

Mr. Rapier, simply because you cannot operate in Korea, does not mean that Homer, Gord, and myself can't. Learn Korean. Get Korean friends (the type that will go to court if need be to support you). Pick battles that you can win.

If you think that you are a slave here, put it to the test. I will bet that you will have no problems leaving Korea. Simply toss your alien card on Immigration's desk on the way out, and board that plane. YOU choose to work here and stay here. So did Mr. HP. That negates any right you have to complain. You did it to yourself. Working in Korea is not a right. Just like anywhere else.

Homer · Guest

Rapier,

I (and Urban and some others) do not argue that black is white.
We argue that many people on here focus on extreme cases or their own very personal experiences and then apply it to the whole of the Korean experience.
Why is it so difficult for you to imagine that many people here are quite happy and lead fulfilling lives?
Not one of us (except the departed CPA) would argue that Korea is perfect or even better then back home. Thats not the point.
Also this thread is a perfect example of using extremes to try and make a general point.
Slavery in Korea for English teachers thats a completely untenable position to be taken.
When you look closely at HP's posts in here, you will see he uses extreme exemples or behaviors (physical violence to teachers for example). In his quest to prove that he is a slave (boo hoo hoo..poor him...masser treat him bad) he conveniently forgets that:
a) He came here by his own choice
b) He can leave whenever he wants by simply buying a ticket and leaving.

He also compares apples and oranges in trying to make his slavery point. He compares indonesian foreign workers and English Teachers in Korea and calls them both slaves. One only has to look closer to see how non-valid that is.

No one is denying that some teachers get cheated or misstreated.
Thats not in dispute.
However, as Urban said, we all came here of our own free will and can leave at anytime.
Of course running might cause a person some stress (oh boo hoo hoo) and some financial losses.
Then there is always the labor board and immigration (as Gord said).
What HP fails to mention is that many teachers here run not because of ill treatment but because they feel homesick or simply don't like it here.
In fact, many teachers that run do so as a first option instead of even trying to solve the problem legally.
HP also makes giant assumptions about the teaching market here and about general conditions.
The contract structure in Korea means you are locked in for one year. This again is not slavery as at the end of this contract you can seek other employement or move on to greener pastures.
You come here free, live here free and leave free. Where is the slavery in this?

As it was stated, the E-2 visa is far from ideal as it does limit you to one employer and makes it a little more complicated to get a release to work elsewhere. Is that slavery? I think not.

Look at all the teachers doing privates in Korea. Would a slave be able to earn substantial amounts of money teaching private lessons with very little risk of consequences?

Would a slave have access to a labor board (even if it is far from perfect), money to buy a plane ticket out of here when he or she chooses (if he or she saved), a free appartement (not a slave hut in some field), freedom to go where he or she pleases during his free time, freedom to discuss things with his boss (even if this is tough sometimes) when things are not going well?
The answer to all these questions is of course negative.

humanuspneumos · Joined: 08 Jun 2003

I get a real kick out of TUM, Gord, and Homer. I'm wondering what "Paint by number" kit you three are using because I think you had better send it back to the manufacturer. The numbers are all mixed up:

Your description/denial of teaching in the ROK sounds like a cabin, overlooking a lake, with a Merc. parked in your 200 yard, paved driveway. Pink flamingo are nesting nearby where you can appreciate their beauty. "Oh my, a crow released dung on my tire. Josh, come over here. There's some doo-doo on my tire. Please get something to clean that off. Slurp, slurp, ahhhhh- this is the life."

It's a good thing that history has been allowed to escape people locked into your particular paradigms. I find it hard to believe at this point in the game- and not excluding your previous posts in other threads over months and months- that your glasses see Daffy Duck skipping across the water upside down, flipping and all- even still that's what you see.

If we were to print out- from black lists, grey lists, the mother of black lists, and posts over the last 8 years here at Dave's- there'd be a mountain to substantiate what myself and others have said all along. Would you see that mountain or be distracted by a woodpecker pecking on the tree? Wouldn't you guys be just a little embarassed if someone sent you all the print-outs (as a moving van pulls up to your apart. to unload them)? Or-

in your world are all the black lists, grey lists, complaints, personal web-sites dedicated to reveal what really goes on are just:

* whiners
* liars
* people off meds
* people who could have done more to make it a park-like-atmosphere

ahh- haaa

Something smells in Denmark. Me thinx it's a situation where one is denying something exists until someone pulls the kettle of hot water off of the fire and tips it over the head of the one who says- "Nothing of the such exists. And if it did- it's in very small-harmless quantity. Hey- what are you doing you numbskull- that stuff if hot. shuffle, shuffle" Oh- now it exists when it's you it's happening too. Yeah- I get it now.

Some of you like to use "whiner" -I guess if we retort we would have to assume that with such rose-stained-glasses that the three of you are fully-pledged recruiters. Others experiencing pain= pocket-money for you? Keep the pain mill going. Or at very least- keep people from seeing it until the E-2 changes.