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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:09 pm Post subject: List of countries by debt. |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
Is what I looked for in wiki. It didn't disappoint.
Just an interesting page.
Interesting to see that the UK is basically the worlds worst country when it comes to loans.
Also interesting to note that African countries are the most lacking on average in the level of debt. |
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Chris.Quigley
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Location: Belfast. N Ireland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I never realized how bad it was for some countries... I used to think that Canada was in a bad spot. Now I realize that we are actually doing fairly well... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for this. But I think the Economist does an even better job displaying world debt. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris.Quigley wrote: |
| I never realized how bad it was for some countries... I used to think that Canada was in a bad spot. Now I realize that we are actually doing fairly well... |
Canada is doing the best in the developed world, but their gov't and financial debt is on par with the US's, and that's not stellar company. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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http://financialinsights.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/canadas-debt-versus-the-piigs-debt-net-government-debt.jpg
Ontario and Quebec are in much worse shape than California etc too.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/ontario-like-california-going-for-broke/article1684035/
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Now, let�s see. According to the state treasurer, who should know, California (population 36.4 million) has sovereign debt of $60-billion (U.S.) � $1,650 per person. Investors rate California�s 10-year bonds as slightly less risky than Croatia�s. Reputable academic analysts anticipate bankruptcy. (As Bill Watkins, director of the Center for Economic Research and Forecasting at California Lutheran University, put it: �California is now more likely to default than it is not to default.� )
On the other hand, Ontario (population 13 million) has debt of $220-billion (Canadian) � $16,900 per person � an economy with roughly one-third the people and roughly 10 times the per-capita debt. California would need more than $600-billion (U.S.) in debt to equal Ontario. So why does no one appear fussed by Ontario�s record-setting accumulation of debt? |
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/open-house/Canadian+mortgage+debt+tops+trillion/3793607/story.html
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Canadian mortgage debt tops $1 trillion
Financial Post November 8, 2010
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Total debt and per capita debt is insignificant, from a management perspective. As anyone in business knows, it's the debt-to-asset ratio that matters, hence the value of the % of GDP figures.
UK and Netherlands are in trouble at 400% of GDP in debt, Ireland and Luxembourg have unreal debt ratios, Hong Kong and Liberia aren't able to afford theirs by themselves either.
The countries doing very well in terms of % of yearly GDP: China above all with a paltry 7%, then surprisingly quite a few Latin American countries among the strongest position debtwise: Brazil, Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Chile. In Asia: India, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and Saudi Arabia have nothing to worry about in terms of ability to repay debt based on yearly national income levels. In Europe, only Russia, Czech Republic and Turkey are sitting pretty; Israel too. Canada is doing okay not great with 62%, much less than the global average. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://financialinsights.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/canadas-debt-versus-the-piigs-debt-net-government-debt.jpg
Ontario and Quebec are in much worse shape than California etc too.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/ontario-like-california-going-for-broke/article1684035/
| Quote: |
Now, let�s see. According to the state treasurer, who should know, California (population 36.4 million) has sovereign debt of $60-billion (U.S.) � $1,650 per person. Investors rate California�s 10-year bonds as slightly less risky than Croatia�s. Reputable academic analysts anticipate bankruptcy. (As Bill Watkins, director of the Center for Economic Research and Forecasting at California Lutheran University, put it: �California is now more likely to default than it is not to default.� )
On the other hand, Ontario (population 13 million) has debt of $220-billion (Canadian) � $16,900 per person � an economy with roughly one-third the people and roughly 10 times the per-capita debt. California would need more than $600-billion (U.S.) in debt to equal Ontario. So why does no one appear fussed by Ontario�s record-setting accumulation of debt? |
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/open-house/Canadian+mortgage+debt+tops+trillion/3793607/story.html
| Quote: |
Canadian mortgage debt tops $1 trillion
Financial Post November 8, 2010
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It's insane because the motto now is keep borrowing more money and if you don't give it to me I default. |
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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Having high debt /= poor loan management |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Can someone please explain to me why external debt matters and why it is so bad?
I can understand that high external debt + low GDP = a bankrupt nation, but most of these countries with huge external debt also have huge GDP.
It's like a rich person with a huge mortgage. Sure, he owes a ton of money, but he makes a ton of money, too!
Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
I would think total external debt divided by total yearly GDP (or GNP?) would be a more meaningful indicator... |
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el_magico
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
Total debt and per capita debt is insignificant, from a management perspective. As anyone in business knows, it's the debt-to-asset ratio that matters, hence the value of the % of GDP figures.
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Actually, it's debt to income ratio (earning before interest, taxes, depreciation and amoritzation). Assets are accounted for at historical value not fair market value and quite often are illiquid |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| el_magico wrote: |
| Louis VI wrote: |
| Total debt and per capita debt is insignificant, from a management perspective. As anyone in business knows, it's the debt-to-asset ratio that matters, hence the value of the % of GDP figures. |
Actually, it's debt to income ratio (earning before interest, taxes, depreciation and amoritzation). Assets are accounted for at historical value not fair market value and quite often are illiquid |
Liquidity is beside the point. The issue is one's ability to pay debt and to that issue ASSETS indicate equity that could be leveraged.
Nations like the US of A are solid investments for any foreign banks looking at lending funds due to how MANY ASSETS (AND INCOME, TRUE) are available. Doomsday predictions about the American economy or financial system are bunk. |
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el_magico
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| el_magico wrote: |
| Louis VI wrote: |
| Total debt and per capita debt is insignificant, from a management perspective. As anyone in business knows, it's the debt-to-asset ratio that matters, hence the value of the % of GDP figures. |
Actually, it's debt to income ratio (earning before interest, taxes, depreciation and amoritzation). Assets are accounted for at historical value not fair market value and quite often are illiquid |
Liquidity is beside the point. The issue is one's ability to pay debt and to that issue ASSETS indicate equity that could be leveraged.
Nations like the US of A are solid investments for any foreign banks looking at lending funds due to how MANY ASSETS (AND INCOME, TRUE) are available. Doomsday predictions about the American economy or financial system are bunk. |
Are you on crack? Liquidity is beside the point? It is what keeps a country/person/business solvent. Once the liquidity goes away, you are bankrupt. It is the most important factor in credit analysis. How is USA a solid investment if they devalue their currency? Do you read financial newspapers? Have you got any idea what the current interest rates are? Who cares what their assets are if the money you lent to Uncle Sam loses 3%-4% a year due to inflation ?
Assets are used for collateral only in personal loans or if you are buying distressed debt of a company you plan to flip. Governments aren't going to liquidate their assets to pay off creditors, it'd never fly politically so they default, it's happened before and people are pooping their pants it will happen again. There was a comment by a German politician last summer that Greece should sell their islands to satisfy the debt and it caused an uproar. Greece and Ireland have assets and yet markets are worried that they will default.
I work in credit markets and I do credit analysis all day long. |
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el_magico
Joined: 14 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
Can someone please explain to me why external debt matters and why it is so bad?
I can understand that high external debt + low GDP = a bankrupt nation, but most of these countries with huge external debt also have huge GDP.
It's like a rich person with a huge mortgage. Sure, he owes a ton of money, but he makes a ton of money, too!
Am I thinking about this the wrong way?
I would think total external debt divided by total yearly GDP (or GNP?) would be a more meaningful indicator... |
You are right, that's why you look at GDP to debt ratio. USA and Japan are rich, but that doesn't mean they can borrow indefinitely. Japan has a ratio to over 100%, which is one of the highest in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:42 am Post subject: |
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It would be more interesting if the figures included domestically held foreign debt... That is, if it showed the other side of the debt balance sheet.
I'm sure China's +7% would change to -50%, lol.
It would help to put the other countries' situations in perspective too... I'd imagine that the US holds a significant amount of foreign debt, whereas many European countries (I'm looking at you, Luxembourg) do not. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| el_magico wrote: |
| Have you got any idea what the current interest rates are? Who cares what their assets are if the money you lent to Uncle Sam loses 3%-4% a year due to inflation ? |
You're right in principle, but interest rates haven't been 3-4% in several years. They're less than half that right now. |
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