Korean Job Discussion Forums

[alistaircandlin]

The Is might have it, but they are wrong.

[Pink Freud]

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm :


When the personal pronoun follows except, but, than, or as, you've got an argument on your hands. Traditionally, these words have been regarded as conjunctions and the personal pronoun that follows has been regarded as the subject of a clause (which might not be completed). Thus "No one could be as happy as I." (If you provide the entire mechanism of the clause � "as I [am]" � you see the justification for the subject form.) The same goes for these other conjunctions: "Whom were you expecting? who else but he?" "My father is still taller than she" [than she is].

Many grammarians have argued, however, that these words are often used as prepositions, not conjunctions (and have been used that way for centuries by many good writers). In a structure such as "My mother is a lot like her," we have no trouble recognizing that "like" is acting as a preposition and we need the object form of the pronoun after it. Why, then, can't we use "than" and "but" as prepositions in sentences such as "Dad's a lot taller than him" and "No one in this class has done the homework but me"? Such usage is now widely regarded as acceptable in all but the most formal writing. The same argument is sometimes used for the object form after as � "The coach is not as smart as me" � but this argument does not enjoy the cogency of using the object form after but and than.

Garner* argues that when the pronoun precedes the but phrase, the objective case should be used ("None of the students were interested but him"); when the but phrase precedes the verb, the subject case is appropriate ("None of the students but he were interested"). The argument goes that in the former case but is behaving as a preposition, in the second as a conjunction.

[edwardcatflap]

As Pink Freud says, traditional grammarians regard 'as' as a conjunction so Koreans would insist that it should be

'Jessica goes to the same school as John and I," since it is short for

Jessica goes to the same school as John and I go"

In formal English you would of course say

'Jessica and I go to the same school', not Jessica and me go to the same school' so

Jessica goes to the same school as I' would be correct if 'as' is being used as a conjunction.

[mollayo]

[yoja]

ummm...sorry you felt offended.

I wasn't trying to judge you or anyone else. I was just trying to point out a simpler way for you to approach the matter in a way that would eliminate the need to find the correct answer.

Personally, I can never remember the difference between "affect" or "effect" so I never use those words. I use "impact" or another word. There are plenty of other cases where I don't know, can't remember, or don't care about grammar or usage, yet I don't want to look like an idiot. So I just find another, simpler way to word things, and call it good. I was just sharing my approach. I thought it was a pretty smart approach. Didn't mean to come off condescending.

Anyway, the part about Harvard Mensa club...I was poking fun at (in my experience) many Korean students who are so nitpicky/worried about using the EXACT word or phrase perfectly. I try to teach them, and then two days later they can't remember it anyway (it drives me crazy, the simultaneous attitude of obsession and yet behavior that is total sloppiness).

I guess my sarcasm/humor didn't quite hit its target.

[trogdor]

[WadRUG'naDoo]

[cragesmure]

Who's John?

[lifeinkorea]

Could there simply be multiple correct answers depending on context and interpretation?

Are there any test questions from books which include 2 possible answers? That's what we, as teachers, should be addressing.

[Chris.Quigley]

[WadRUG'naDoo]

[Dan_84]

There are many dialogues in the academic field of pedagogy about the power of "Standard English" over commonly used forms of English (including local dialects, African-American Vernacular English (aka "ebonics"), and linguistic hybrids).

Last I checked, the commonly accepted form of pedagogy was to teach and expect students to use Standard English on assignments and presentations, while also validating the forms of English they may use in their daily lives. Explain that they need to learn to use Standard English, as it's the "language of power" in our society, but there is nothing inherently wrong with the language they may use with their friends and family (it may cause difficulties in school, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it). It's a form of "code-switching."

When my Korean co-workers ask me about a tricky sentence or grammatical form, I explain what the grammarians would say is correct, but I add that certain other (arguably "incorrect") forms are used in daily speech between native speakers.

[blackjack]

[edwardcatflap]

[Old fat expat]

I'm no grammarian, but this is how I look at it.

"Nobody plays basketball like John and me."

"John and me" is a compound object, the and functioning as joining two objects, thus this is a simple sentence with a compound object, therefore use the object me.

"Nobody plays basketball like John and I."
Here the and is used as a coordinating conjunctive, making this a compound sentence.

I suppose either sentence form is fine.

Just one problem. If it is a compound sentence, then the I has become a fragment because your object is without its predicate.

Has English evolved so that it is common practice to leave the vowels out of sentences?