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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:12 am Post subject: A suggestion to mitigate Korea's "hagwon problem" |
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For all I know, something like this might exist already, but during my year teaching in a hagwon I couldn't help but get the feeling that my hagwon was not subject to a high level of accountability in terms of student performance in English. I mean, parents (most of whom don't speak English themselves) could give their kids somewhat of an evaluation, but I doubt they had any idea whether their kids would perform better or worse in English if they were to change hagwons, and therefore my hagwon was able to get away with all the typical shenanigans.
So how about this:
1) Have students of all grades write standardized tests in English.
2) Have the students identify the hagwon they attend on their test paper.
3) Gather the results and publish the statistics for each hagwon's students' performances online.
Of course this is something that should be done at the local level so that good, responsible franchisees don't suffer if their franchise performs poorly nation-wide.
Anyway, I think something like this could have the crap hagwons out there getting their act together before they're forced out of business.
What do you think? Too simplistic of a solution for a complicated problem? |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Location: Yap
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Your suggestion fails in not considering student improvement. A hagwon succeeding in helping mediocre students would rank lower than one that did little for advantaged students. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: |
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There's some merit to your plan but I can already see some problems that would occur.
1. Cheating. There would be huge profit on having their students score high.
2. Teaching for the test. Forget conversation. Another test to go crazy over.
3. Bribery. The test would likely be leaked by someone wanting a new Audi. Big chains could afford big bribes.
And like so many things in Korea, they are good on paper but done so poorly when it comes time for the real thing. |
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sulperman
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:30 am Post subject: |
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schwa wrote: |
Your suggestion fails in not considering student improvement. A hagwon succeeding in helping mediocre students would rank lower than one that did little for advantaged students. |
This. Certain hagwons in certain areas attract high level students who would kill that test regardless of what the hagwon taught them.
Another fact that is important to remember that is all too often forgotten- PS english may be a bit crap, but kids spend a lot of time in these classes and many do learn an awful lot. It wouldn't be fair to base a hagwon's ratings partially on the success or failure of the local school's english program. |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Your suggestion fails in not considering student improvement. |
I never said that the published statistics couldn't include an improvement indicator. Publish all the indicators that might be relevant. The more the merrier.
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A hagwon succeeding in helping mediocre students would rank lower than one that did little for advantaged students. |
It's unlikely that a hagwon would have a disproportionate number of advantaged students unless they already had a prestigious reputation in the community, in which case scoring high would not harm the hagwon "succeeding in helping mediocre students."
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1. Cheating. There would be huge profit on having their students score high. |
Well, the tests would be administered at the public schools which would make it difficult for hagwons to intervene.
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2. Teaching for the test. Forget conversation. Another test to go crazy over. |
Point taken, although optimally the test would be designed to be 100% unpredictable. It would not have bearing on the student's record, but only written for statistic purposes.
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3. Bribery. The test would likely be leaked by someone wanting a new Audi. Big chains could afford big bribes. |
Point taken again. I don't know much about Korean bureaucracy, but perhaps it's in great need of reform before ideas like this can be implemented. Again though, since results would be published locally (perhaps even exclusive to the public school), it would make it incredibly difficult for big chains to bribe officials since there would be hundreds of different wards or schools to cover.
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Certain hagwons in certain areas attract high level students who would kill that test regardless of what the hagwon taught them. |
Hagwons like this tend to run at full capacity already just because of their reputation. The more average hagwons who are striving to increase their business don't need to be worried about these.
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It wouldn't be fair to base a hagwon's ratings partially on the success or failure of the local school's english program. |
Well, optimally the results published would be exclusive to students of the same PS (or the same district if all the schools in that district run the same program).
Anyway, if this suggestion is not viable... what if the results were not published but simply reviewed by the district? Then, if a hagwon had a disturbing pattern of piss-poor performances that were statistically indisputable, they would receive a warning, and then upon further poor performances would have their license revoked. Sounds harsh, but this is children's future at stake. |
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Catfisher
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Here's a suggestion for you: Collect your paycheck and mind your business. |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Catfisher wrote: |
Here's a suggestion for you: Collect your paycheck and mind your business. |
I wonder if you give the same advice to Catholic priests.  |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Here's another suggestion for the OP: "Collect your paycheck and mind your own business!" Oh, that has already been suggested. |
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Catfisher
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: |
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lichtarbeiter wrote: |
Catfisher wrote: |
Here's a suggestion for you: Collect your paycheck and mind your business. |
I wonder if you give the same advice to Catholic priests.  |
For them I would add "keep your hands to yourself"
On second thought OP, "Collect your paycheck, keep your hands to yourself and mind your own business." |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Catfisher wrote: |
lichtarbeiter wrote: |
Catfisher wrote: |
Here's a suggestion for you: Collect your paycheck and mind your business. |
I wonder if you give the same advice to Catholic priests.  |
For them I would add "keep your hands to yourself"
On second thought OP, "Collect your paycheck, keep your hands to yourself and mind your own business." |
I'm not talking about the perpetrators, I'm talking about the ones who know the perpetrators and what they're doing. Collect your paycheck and mind your business, right?  |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: |
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It's obvious, OP, that you don't know much about the system. Many of the hogwons' success is based on the national tests that the students take at their public school. Mother's tend to move their children to hogwons that produce better results. I could go on and on. It's obvious that you don't know what you are talking about and your idea stinks for many reasons. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:56 am Post subject: |
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A suggestion to mitigate 'lichtarbeiter's "Teaching Problem"
lichtar, instead of your usual 5 classes of hangman, tomorrow, take the day off, go to the Board of Education, and address this issue with them. Let us know how it all turns out.
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: |
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wooden nickels wrote: |
It's obvious, OP, that you don't know much about the system. |
lichtarbeiter wrote: |
For all I know, something like this might exist already |
So, right off the bat, you demonstrate your inability of basic reading comprehension.
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Many of the hogwons' success is based on the national tests that the students take at their public school. Mother's tend to move their children to hogwons that produce better results. I could go on and on. |
If this is true, then what's your beef with me? I never said this didn't exist. I wasn't aware of its existence, and I simply suggested that it should. Why aren't you taking issue with the people who are identifying the problems with if it IF it existed (essentially implying that it doesn't exist).
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...your idea stinks for many reasons. |
Well, according to you, my idea has already been more-or-less implemented. So perhaps you should put more actual argument into your posts and less uninteresting rhetoric. |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
A suggestion to mitigate 'lichtarbeiter's "Teaching Problem"
lichtar, instead of your usual 5 classes of hangman, tomorrow, take the day off, go to the Board of Education, and address this issue with them. Let us know how it all turns out.
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I don't teach at a hagwon anymore. Basic reading comprehension of my OP would have helped you understand that. I hope the Dave's crowd tonight is not an accurate sample of the literacy level of FTs in Korea.
I wonder if you give similar pompous responses to every person in Korea who casually speculates on what can be done to fix the problem with education here. |
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goat
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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lichtarbeiter wrote: |
wooden nickels wrote: |
It's obvious, OP, that you don't know much about the system. |
lichtarbeiter wrote: |
For all I know, something like this might exist already |
So, right off the bat, you demonstrate your inability of basic reading comprehension.
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Many of the hogwons' success is based on the national tests that the students take at their public school. Mother's tend to move their children to hogwons that produce better results. I could go on and on. |
If this is true, then what's your beef with me? I never said this didn't exist. I wasn't aware of its existence, and I simply suggested that it should. Why aren't you taking issue with the people who are identifying the problems with if it IF it existed (essentially implying that it doesn't exist).
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...your idea stinks for many reasons. |
Well, according to you, my idea has already been more-or-less implemented. So perhaps you should put more actual argument into your posts and less uninteresting rhetoric. |
I agree with Nester Noodlemon. Why? don't you take some of your brainy ideas over to the board of education. You are suggesting implementing something that is somewhat already in place. The better schools tend to stay in business longer and the lesser schools tend to fail more often, in general though not in every case.
You have basically admitted that you don't really know what is in place and what isn't. There is a lot you are not aware of. |
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