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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: The USA attacking China. Could it ever happen? |
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I'm just wondering. Do you think the USA will one day attack China? Some Russian friends of mine were chatting with some interesting military brass and the possibility of an attack came up. Not o mention, the USA is surrounding China as we speak. It would seem that the USA might not be able to live in the world with another superpower.
Or, do they need the cash that China can produce and are willing to overlook the power that they yield.
Myself, I would say that in the next 20 years or so, maybe the USA may attack China.
Any thoughts? |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:07 am Post subject: |
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I dunno, something about the American view of China indicates a dynamic that does not support military confrontation on a large scale (within China anyway... *cough* Korea... Vietnam... *cough*).
The American fascination with China has always been on the numbers of consumers (and religious converts) available. Frankly, wars are far too costly for them to justify using that as a short term economic strategy. Imperialism took decades if not centuries to justify the military expense and constructing (or in modern terms, reconstructing) infrastructure. Given that there is now a dynamic in the world that no country should ever be under the control of another, this seems to preclude using war as economic policy.
I think even with the Iraq issue, while economics are considered, the policy was more of personal vendetta than economic. Frankly, America would have to solely occupy Iraq for decades to recoup the what, $100 billion spent on the war.
International politics are too complex today to justify war as an economic tool... unlike pre-WWII international relations.
Long answer just to say, the US is more likely to invade Canada than make an unprovoked attack on China. |
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funplanet
Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Location: The new Bucheon!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:23 am Post subject: |
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the question is not whether the us and china will go at it...the question is whether it will be russia vs china....a more likely scenario
eastern russia has something china has had its eyes on for several decades...a hell of alot more natural resources (gold, oil, timber, uranium to name a few) and SPACE...the number of chinese illegals in siberia has been increasing over the years and they are involved in everything from cutting timber to mining...
I lived in russia for 5 years and most of my russian friends, several were ex military and ex/current government and a major concern in the russian gov was CHINA and their incursions and intentions in eastern russia..a defacto invasion...russia can't protect the hinterlands and china has been taking advantage of it for decades...
perhaps the us & russia vs china!!! and then we could carve up china and make it one, big walmart!!! |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Admittedly, I only really know one girl from China... but the Chinese don't strike me as the Eskimo type. There's a reason why so few Russians live in Siberia, the Irkutsk, Kamchatka, etc... it's friggin' cold there. And half the resources we can't get to cause the machinery breaks down...
unless of course China is preparing for the great global warming... |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I read an interesting article in The Atlantic a few months back (I can't find the article now). Apparently, both China and Japan own huge amounts of American currency and debt. If the US ever invaded, the Chinese could simply start a run on their currency and screw the economy.
edit Here's the article
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| Despite its unchallenged military might, the United States has an Achilles' heel: its economy depends on foreign capital. Though hardly anyone acknowledges this publicly, China and Japan already hold so much American debt that, theoretically, each could exert enormous leverage on American foreign policy. So far, the economic dependence of these countries on American consumers has kept them from exercising such power. But what would happen if, for instance, Washington changed its one-China policy and officially recognized Taiwan? Or if the Bush Administration threatened to invade North Korea? Simply by dumping U.S. Treasury bills and other dollar-denominated assets, China—which holds more federal U.S. debt than any other country—could cause the value of the dollar to plummet, leading to a major crisis for the U.S. economy. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that's very interesting. BTW, on a related note. Do you think it's a good idea to invest in Chinese Yuen? Some people have bought a crap load of it and are waiting until it goes on the market. They think it will go up and will make lots of $$. Any opinions on it? Risky?
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
I read an interesting article in The Atlantic a few months back (I can't find the article now). Apparently, both China and Japan own huge amounts of American currency and debt. If the US ever invaded, the Chinese could simply start a run on their currency and screw the economy.
edit Here's the article
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| Despite its unchallenged military might, the United States has an Achilles' heel: its economy depends on foreign capital. Though hardly anyone acknowledges this publicly, China and Japan already hold so much American debt that, theoretically, each could exert enormous leverage on American foreign policy. So far, the economic dependence of these countries on American consumers has kept them from exercising such power. But what would happen if, for instance, Washington changed its one-China policy and officially recognized Taiwan? Or if the Bush Administration threatened to invade North Korea? Simply by dumping U.S. Treasury bills and other dollar-denominated assets, China—which holds more federal U.S. debt than any other country—could cause the value of the dollar to plummet, leading to a major crisis for the U.S. economy. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't know jack about currency. I wish I did. I'm still trying to figure out how not to get screwed on the current exchange rates (Won to CDN$).
Having said that, I was in Malaysia for the Asian economic crisis, and hence, I'd never invest in Asian currencies. I have a sinking feeling that nobody learned their lessons in '97. If you're looking for a long term investment, I'd bet my ignant ass that that one's going to be a loser.
I know, where's George Soros when you need him? |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Here's an interesting bit about the federal reserve system in America.
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Phone Call to the Fed
by DAN BENHAM
The following is a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account of that conversation.
CALLER - Mr. Supinski, does my country own the Federal Reserve System?
MR. SUPINSKI - We are an agency of the government.
CALLER - That's not my question. Is it owned by my country?
MR. SUPINSKI - It is an agency of the government created by congress.
CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - Does my government own any of the stock in the Federal Reserve?
MR. SUPINSKI - No, it is owned by the member banks.
CALLER - Are the member banks private corporations?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - Are Federal Reserve Notes backed by anything?
MR. SUPINSKI-Yes, by the assets of the Federal Reserve but, primarily by the power of congress to lay tax on the people.
CALLER - Did you say, by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?
SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - What are the total assets of the Federal Reserve?
MR. SUPINSKI - The San Francisco Bank has $36 Billion in assets.
CALLER - What are these assets composed of?
MR. SUPINSKI - Gold, the Federal Reserve Bank itself and government securities.
CALLER - What value does the Federal Reserve Bank carry gold per oz. on their books?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't have that information but the San Francisco Bank has $1.6 billion in gold.
CALLER - Are you saying the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has $1.6 billion in gold, the bank itself and the balance of the assets is government securities?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes.
CALLER - Where does the Federal Reserve get Federal Reserve Notes from?
MR. SUPINSKI - They are authorized by the Treasury.
CALLER - How much does the Federal Reserve pay for a $10 Federal Reserve Note?
MR. SUPINSKI - Fifty to seventy cents.
CALLER - How much do they pay for a $100.00 Federal Reserve Note?
MR. SUPINSKI - The same fifty to seventy cents.
CALLER - To pay only fifty cents for a $100.00 is a tremendous gain, isn't it?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - According to the US Treasury, the Federal Reserve pays $20.60 per 1,000 denomination or a little over two cents for a $100.00 bill, is that correct?
MR. SUPINSKI - That is probably close.
CALLER - Doesn't the Federal Reserve use the Federal Reserve Notes that cost about two cents each to purchase US Bonds from the government?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, but there is more to it than that.
CALLER - Basically, that is what happens?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, basically you are correct.
CALLER - How many Federal Reserve Notes are in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - $263 billion and we can only account for a small percentage.
CALLER - Where did they go?
MR. SUPINSKI - Peoples mattress, buried in their back yards and illegal drug money.
CALLER - Since the debt is payable in Federal Reserve Notes, how can the $4 trillion national debt be paid-off with the total Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.
CALLER - If the Federal Government would collect every Federal Reserve Note in circulation would it be mathematically possible to pay the $4 trillion national debt?
MR. SUPINSKI - No
CALLER - Am I correct when I say, $1 deposited in a member bank $8 can be lent out through Fractional Reserve Policy?
MR. SUPINSKI - About $7.
CALLER - Correct me if I am wrong but, $7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either. In other words, the Federal Reserve Notes were not physically printed but, in reality were created by a journal entry and lent at interest. Is that correct?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - Is that the reason there are only $263 billion Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - That is part of the reason.
CALLER - Am I mistaking that when the Federal Reserve Act was passed (on Christmas Eve) in 1913, it transferred the power to coin and issue our nation's money and to regulate the value thereof from Congress to a Private corporation. And my country now borrows what should be our own money from the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) plus interest. Is that correct and the debt can never be paid off under the current money system of country?
MR. SUPINSKI - Basically, yes.
CALLER - I smell a rat, do you?
MR. SUPINSKI - I am sorry, I can't answer that, I work here.
CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been independently audited?
MR. SUPINSKI - We are audited.
CALLER - Why is there a current House Resolution 1486 calling for a complete audit of the Federal Reserve by the GAO and why is the Federal Reserve resisting?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.
CALLER - Does the Federal Reserve regulate the value of Federal Reserve Notes and interest rates?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes
CALLER - Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the US, which comprises of the Senate and the House of representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof? [Article 1 Section 1 and Section 8] Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?
MR. SUPINSKI - I am not an expert on constitutional law. I can refer you to our legal department.
CALLER - I can tell you I have read the Constitution. It does NOT provide that any power granted can be transferred to a private corporation. Doesn't it specifically state, all other powers not granted are reserved to the States and to the citizens? Does that mean to a private corporation?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't think so, but we were created by Congress.
CALLER - Would you agree it is our country and it should be our money as provided by our Constitution?
MR. SUPINSKI - I understand what you are saying.
CALLER - Why should we borrow our own money from a private consortium of bankers? Isn't this why we had a revolution, created a separate sovereign nation and a Bill of Rights?
MR. SUPINSKI - (Declined to answer).
CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court?
MR. SUPINSKI - I believe there has been court cases on the matter.
CALLER - Have there been Supreme Court Cases?
MR. SUPINSKI - I think so, but I am not sure.
CALLER - Didn't the Supreme Court declare unanimously in A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corp. vs. US and Carter vs. Carter Coal Co. the corporative-state arrangement an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power? ["The power conferred is the power to regulate. This is legislative delegation in its most obnoxious form; for it is not even delegation to an official or an official body, presumptively disinterested, but to private persons." Carter vs. Carter Coal Co...]
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know, I can refer you to our legal department.
CALLER - Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?
MR. SUPINSKI - It appears that way. I can tell you have been looking into this matter and are very knowledgeable. However, we do have a solution.
CALLER - What is the solution?
MR. SUPINSKI - The Debit Card.
CALLER - Do you mean under the EFT Act (Electronic Funds Transfer)? Isn't that very frightening, when one considers the capabilities of computers? It would provide the government and all it's agencies, including the Federal Reserve such information as: You went to the gas station @ 2:30 and bought $10.00 of unleaded gas @ $1.41 per gallon and then you went to the grocery store @ 2:58 and bought bread, lunch meat and milk for $12.32 and then went to the drug store @ 3:30 and bought cold medicine for $5.62. In other words, they would know where we go, when we went, how much we paid, how much the merchant paid and how much profit he made. Under the EFT they will literally know everything about us. Isn't that kind of scary?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, it makes you wonder.
CALLER - I smell a GIANT RAT that has overthrown my constitution. Aren't we paying tribute in the form of income taxes to a consortium of private bankers?
MR. SUPINSKI - I can't call it tribute, it is interest.
CALLER - Haven't all elected officials taken an oath of office to preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic? Isn't the Federal Reserve a domestic enemy?
MR. SUPINSKI - I can't say that.
CALLER - Our elected officials and members of the Federal Reserve are guilty of aiding and abetting the overthrowing of my Constitution and that is treason. Isn't the punishment of treason death?
MR. SUPINSKI - I believe so.
CALLER - Thank you for your time and information and if I may say so, I think you should take the necessary steps to protect you and your family and withdraw your money from the banks before the collapse, I am.
MR. SUPINSKI - It doesn't look good.
CALLER - May God have mercy on the souls who are behind this unconstitutional and criminal act called the Federal Reserve. When the ALMIGHTY MASS awakens to this giant hoax, they will not take it with a grain of salt. It has been a pleasure talking to you and I thank you for your time. I hope you will take my advice before it does collapse.
MR. SUPINSKI - Unfortunately, it does not look good.
CALLER - Have a good day and thanks for your time.
MR. SUPINSKI - Thanks for calling.
If the reader has any doubts to the validity of this conversation, call your nearest Federal Reserve Bank, YOU KNOW THE QUESTIONS TO ASK! You won't find them listed under the Federal Government. They are in the white pages, along with Federal Express, Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), and any other business. Find out for yourself if all this is true.
And then, go to your local law library and look up the case of Lewis vs. US, case #80-5905, 9th Circuit, June 24, 1982. It reads in part: "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the federal reserve are NOT federal instrumentality's . . but are independent and privately owned and controlled corporations - federal reserve banks are listed neither as "wholly-owned' government corporations [under 31 USC Section 846] nor as 'mixed ownership' corporations [under 31 USC Section 856] . . . 28 USC Sections 1346(b), 2671. '
Federal agency' is defined as: the executive departments, the military departments, independent establishments of the United States, and corporations acting primarily as instrumentality's of the United States, but does not include any contractors with the United States . . . There are no sharp criteria for determining whether an entity is a federal agency within the meaning of the Act, but the critical factor is the existence of the federal government control over the 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operations' of that entity.
Other factors courts have considered include whether the entity is an independent corporation . . . whether the government is involved in the entity's finances, . . . and whether the mission of the entity furthers the policy of the United States . . . Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities ...
It is evident from the legislative history of the Federal Reserve Act that Congress did not intend to give the federal government direction over the daily operation of the Reserve Banks . . . The fact that the Federal Reserve Board regulates the Reserve Banks does not make them federal agencies under the Act . . . Unlike typical federal agencies, each bank is empowered to hire and fire employees at will. Bank employees do not participate in the Civil Service Retirement System. They are covered by worker's compensation insurance, purchased by the Bank, rather than the Federal Employees Compensation Act.
Employees traveling on Bank business are not subject to federal travel regulations and do not receive government employee discounts on lodging and services . . . Finally, the Banks are empowered to sue and be sued in their own name. 12 USC Section 341. They carry their own liability insurance and typically process and handle their own claims . . ." According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia, "When the Federal Reserve was created, its stock was sold to the member banks." ("The Hats The Federal Reserve Wears," published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia).
The original Stockholders of the Federal Reserve Banks in 1913 were the Rockefeller's, JP Morgan, Rothschild's, Lazard Freres, Schoellkopf, Kuhn-Loeb, Warburgs, Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs. The MONEYCHANGERS wanted to be insured they had a monopoly over our money supply, so Congress passed into law Title 12, Section 284 of the United States Code. Section 284 specifically states, "NO STOCK ALLOWED TO THE US" *
Monopoly - "A privilege or peculiar advantage vested in one or more persons or companies, consisting in the exclusive right [or power] to carry on a particular business or trade, manufacture a particular article, or control the sale of the whole supply of a particular commodity, A form of market structure in which only a few firms dominate the total sales of a product or service.
'Monopoly,' as prohibited by Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, has two elements: possession of a monopoly power in relevant market and willful acquisition or maintenance of that power, as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior power, business acumen, or historical product. A monopoly condemned by the Sherman Act is the power to fix prices, or exclude competition, coupled with policies designed to use and preserve that power." (Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition) The Federal Reserve Act goes one step farther, "No Senator or Representative in Congress shall be a member of the Federal Reserve Board or an officer or director of a Federal Reserve Bank." They didn't want We The People to have any say in the operation of their monopoly through our elected officials. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Superfly!
Great article! Definetely out of San Francisco!! I love San Francisco people and their thinking and questioning of everything.
Related but unrelated, I worked at San Francisco City Elections Department for awhile.. all kinds of extremely intelligent articulate people questioning everything you can imagine all along the way. Its great! |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
Superfly!
Great article! Definetely out of San Francisco!! I love San Francisco people and their thinking and questioning of everything.
Related but unrelated, I worked at San Francisco City Elections Department for awhile.. all kinds of extremely intelligent articulate people questioning everything you can imagine all along the way. Its great! |
I agree. But TOO long to read!!! |
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Sojuman99
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Location: Leaning Right
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Harpeau wrote: |
Wow, that's very interesting. BTW, on a related note. Do you think it's a good idea to invest in Chinese Yuen? Some people have bought a crap load of it and are waiting until it goes on the market. They think it will go up and will make lots of $$. Any opinions on it? Risky?
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I'm pretty sure most people believe the Yuan is overvalued. It is pegged to the USD, currently about 8.2 Yuan to the $$. If the government (chinese) were to allow it to trade freely it would be worth about half as much. Maybe 15 to $1. Risky ? YES
This is how I understand it, somone may have more info though. |
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maxxx_power
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: BWAHAHAHAHA! I'M FREE!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sojuman99 wrote: |
| Harpeau wrote: |
Wow, that's very interesting. BTW, on a related note. Do you think it's a good idea to invest in Chinese Yuen? Some people have bought a crap load of it and are waiting until it goes on the market. They think it will go up and will make lots of $$. Any opinions on it? Risky?
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I'm pretty sure most people believe the Yuan is overvalued. It is pegged to the USD, currently about 8.2 Yuan to the $$. If the government (chinese) were to allow it to trade freely it would be worth about half as much. Maybe 15 to $1. Risky ? YES
This is how I understand it, somone may have more info though. |
The RMB is actually undervalued. Some believe it's actually 40% more valuable than the government mandated exchange rate. |
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Crois
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: You could be next so watch out.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I used to live in Hong Kong and everyone says how bad the Americans are. Just look at the Chinese Human Rights. There arent any. The are just meglomaniacs (spl). They have taken Hong Kong, Machu (spl), Tibet, they pracrically own Mongolia and now they want Taiwan. Where do they stop. There are already Communists rebels in Nepal and i am sure they would love a few other places to exploit.
I would gladly see the Chinese have a taste of their own medicine.
Also most of the Chinese people my dad worked for didnt like the Chinese themselves. Hong Kong and China are the same but different. If you understand. |
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peppergirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
Admittedly, I only really know one girl from China... but the Chinese don't strike me as the Eskimo type. There's a reason why so few Russians live in Siberia, the Irkutsk, Kamchatka, etc... it's friggin' cold there. And half the resources we can't get to cause the machinery breaks down...
unless of course China is preparing for the great global warming... |
Any idea how BIG China is? And how many people live there? 1,286,975,468 is the estimate for 2003... (= populations of US plus Russia times FOUR) Northern China gets pretty cold too, so for those people there is not much difference with Siberia anyway. |
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Juggertha
Joined: 27 May 2003
Location: Anyang, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I rarely think things like invasion on this scale. I htink there would have to be HUGE events to have something like this happen.
So... what would have to happen for the powers to go to war in this day and age? |
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