Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Jenipa]

I've only been teaching for a month and a half but am wondering how to handle this.

I'm teaching at a Hagwon and for the most part it sucks. I'm not really complaining about that per say because I understand that it's the luck of the draw and most of them do suck. But in my attempts to make it better, I'm wondering if things are going to get any better? I basically feel like nobody there respects me. Not the students or even the co-teachers (American co-teacher aside). I understand that respect is earned but the principle (who speaks very good English) doesn't even acknowledge my existence. This makes me think that I'm never going to win them over.

For example, my birthday was this past week. I've only been there a month so I didn't mention it. It was really no big deal to me and I was fine letting it go by. Anyway, the day of my birthday I came into work, and there were flowers on my desk from my father. The first thing my head teacher did was scold me. She told me she read the card(!!) and that she was angry that I didn't tell her it was my birthday.

This REALLY bothered me. Not as much the birthday situation but the fact that she read the card and basically told me so nonchalantly that she did. There was no reason for her to read it, seeing as they already knew who the flowers were for. I just felt like it was such an invasion of privacy. I understand that I'm no longer in America and that things are different. I am trying my best to be sensitive to the cultural differences but where's the line.
I no longer feel comfortable at my school. At what point do I stop being sensitive and basically stick up for myself?

The same goes for my students. For the most part, they're alright. They don't really respect me but I have one class in particular where they're downright rude, beyond just talking during class/disobeying me. They mock me and they say rude things about me in Korean and constantly flip me off. I've sent one student to the manager, which didn't really help. I sent him to the manager again this week and they took him out of class and made him write "I will not talk in English 50 times." The head teacher was acting like it was my fault.

I guess basically my question is, do I just suck it up and deal with it? I realize that I'm not considered an equal here. Is there anyway of sticking up for myself without risking the alienation of the teachers/students?

[Troglodyte]

It sounds like it's time to leave. Whether it's because the school is crap or because you aren't able to adapt to the culture is debatable, but at the end of it all, you're not happy with your situation. Why force yourself to go through a whole year of that?

Either quit and find another job elsewhere in Korea or head off to Thailand or Vietnam for a while. You might find that other schools in Korea will be very similar, so I'd recommend giving another country a try. They may not be any better but at least you get to see something new. Then after a few months, if you want to give Korea another try, look for a job here and come back.

[stevieg4ever]

You should really try and give more details regarding your situation. Your post is a bit vague.

How do they disrespect you?
How do they undermime you?
How have you tried to make it better?
How does your boss ignore you?

The card sitaution is ridiculous though. I bet the boss didn't even address it with the co teacher did he, which makes it even worse??

What you are going through isn't good but it tends to be standard in South Korea for the most part. Same as my hagwon a long time ago and even ps jobs are the same (same country, same people) for the most part.

Thing is I tend to side with the native having been in an exploitive hagwon myself. When no else cares or gives a hoot then there is very little you can do and all your efforts will be in vain. Either brace yourself for a whole year of this or run as soon as you get your next paycheck DO NOT give your notice in, they will make your life hell.

PS disclaimer
Be prepared for any number of people to come on this post and further add to your woes by disrespecting you, saying you cannot adapt, insisting that you are the cause of your woes and that your hagwon isn't to blame.

[Jenipa]

Sorry that my post was vague. I could explain every situation but I don't think anyone wants to read that and this post would turn into a rant session and novel.

From both of the responses I've gotten, it basically sounds like they suck. That's my question though, isn't this typical of Hagwons? I don't really think I'm not "adapting" to the culture. Me not adapting would be me flipping shit on the woman as I would have liked to do. Rather, I was polite and gracious to her after she gave me birthday wishes and did not bring it up with her.

I guess my basic question is, this type of disrespect normal? Having your boss not talk to you/acknowledge you when you're in a room. He legitimately hasn't spoken to me since my first day there. I understand there's a difference in the culture. Perhaps my question is that since I'm viewing it as "disrespectful" but perhaps this is just "normal" and I shouldn't be offended.

I'm trying to adapt but I'm just wondering what's considered normal treatment of teachers and what's not, that's all.

I'm planning on sticking it out for a little bit but we'll see what happens. The teacher I replaced left after a couple of months because he felt it was "too much work" for a second year teacher. In a letter to the parents discussing his departure, they gave reasons alluding to the recent troubles some schools have had with male teachers being "inappropriate", they felt it was best he leave. So basically, I'm not expecting them to treat me like an angel if I left early.

[stevieg4ever]

Absolutely nothing normal about this. By getting into the mindset that every bad and disrespectful that happens to you is a matter of culture you are only setting yourself up for more frustration and disappointment.

And to be fair and frank you should of made your feelings known to your colleague. I am not trying to sound harsh here but it is pretty clear as daylight to me that they dont respect you, if they did they never would of done something like that!

But again your post is too vague 'Jenipa'. All I can deduce is that you don't - justifiably - like your current position therefore all I can suggest is that you leave.

[Jenipa]

Thank you. I appreciate your candid response. I think I probably was being nice and passive in that I didn't say anything because I wanted them to like me but that clearly was my mistake. I appreciate your input.

[earthquakez]

Jenipa - are you a young/younger woman? If you are, that's half of the explanation. A Korean older than you will often see no need to acknowledge you even at work and even if they are your boss. It is a cultural thing.

When I did my first public school job, I was struck by the whole sterile atmosphere of how the young teachers were basically ignored unless an older colleague who taught in the same field was advising them, reprimanding them, getting them to do some task or another etc.

It was like they didn't exist to most of the other teachers because they were young and of course in a heirarchy such as Korea's to ignore them and consider them below you is normal. When a new young teacher came they weren't welcomed by the other teachers, nobody talked to them except the other young teachers etc.

So it applies to Koreans too. If you're not young, you're still a foreigner and your boss no doubt is convinced you are below him. In fact it wouldn't enter his head to treat you with the respect of trying to make you feel welcome and relaxed. Especially if you are a woman.

But sometimes older foreigners do get more consideration because of their age and experience. If you are under 30 and were employed without much of a working record, despite the fact that you were good enough to get the job you probably are copping heirarchical/gender/status issues from Koreans without recognising them.

As for the teacher who behaved like a nosey child reading your card, you're just going to have to get used to invasions of privacy. At the same time, don't take that to heart. She was interested. The students? Sounds like they're checking out how much they can get away with because they know you haven't done this kind of work before.

Despite the stuff you read about Korean students being supposedly 'respectful', that's a lot of bull in many cases. A lot of Korean students abroad acquire well deserved reputations abroad as self absorbed and lacking the social skills to get along with non Koreans.

Don't be surprised because they are brought up to consider themselves special and to consider their relationships with Koreans as excluding non Koreans. That's why the disrespect of students can be so obnoxious and often it's not discouraged by authority figures whether they're parents or teachers or whoever.

However, the nice Korean kids are great and sometimes the rudeness of the not so nice Korean kids is a symptom of the fact that their lives are spent so much on going to classes that they see yours as an opportunity to unwind. I recommend you walk into your next class with a positive air. Think to yourself 'It's MY classroom!'.

Go to the board and write basic rules of the classroom in clear English. Start by writing something about enjoying English, learning it successfully, and making a good atmosphere in the class. Write NO with a big red cross alongside sentences like "No bad manners in class", "No bad words", "No talking when I'm talking" etc. Of course if they don't understand much English you'll have to be simple when you write on the board.

Discuss with the Korean teachers your rules and what you will do when they are broken. Ask them about discipline in the hagwon and tell them you insist the students show good manners to you otherwise there must be a series of penalties for different breaches of classroom behaviour.

I wouldn't leave just yet. Give it a go. But you really need to get the Korean teachers on side.

[Jenipa]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I am a young woman. Which is why I am not very surprised that the principle ignores me (I'm not really broken up about it). I think the main point of my post was, although I didn't seem to articulate it well, was that I know I'm the lowest rung on the latter so to speak but how much is too much? I know that we (foreigner teachers) are thought of as different and not as valued, but the card thing made me wonder where the line was- Do I not get any privacy? Guess the answer may be that I don't.

Thank you for your suggestions about the rules. My first day I did exactly that. I outlined my rules for the class and went over them, including asking me for permission for things, no talking when I'm talking, no Korean. I guess I need to establish with the head teacher what is done, besides sending them to the manager, when they break the rules.

[stevieg4ever]

The first half of Earthquake's post is far too general and vague.

Yes young people are considered beneath older peope but that doesn't mean they go round alienating and ostracising their younger colleagues. Ignoring people is not common in Korea and is not a part of Korean culture. Im sorry but this line:

"In fact it wouldn't enter his head to treat you with the respect of trying to make you feel welcome and relaxed."

is ridiculous.

I suggest op approaches her boss with a list of things that are concerning her. And then go from there.

[Big Mac]

The card thing is the type of thing that you have to let roll off your back in Korea.

Koreans do not have the same ideas of privacy that we do. They probably see absolutely nothing wrong with looking at your card and would be baffled if you told them that you were offended.

I had many invasions of my privacy that were much worse than this in Korea. I didn't like it, but I had to look at it through a different cultural lens.

For example, I once had a doctor call my school and tell my co-teacher my illness and he yelled at her for not helping me out more with it. I considered that a huge invasion of privacy, but in Korea medical information is not private.

Another time, I moved all of my money out of one of my bank accounts to another bank and the next day my boss asked me why I moved all my money. The bank had obviously called him and notified him. To us, that's a huge invasion of privacy, to them it's not.

So your card issue is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to privacy in Korea. I would forget about it and consider it part of your cultural learning.

[stevieg4ever]

The card was meant for the op not the co teacher. Was it the co teacher's birthday? No! Was it addressed to the co teacher? No! And if someone else opens the card how exactly are you supposed to open it??

I just asked two Korean friends in Korean if their bank information is confidential or is allowed to be divulged to third parties without their consent. The answer: 물론 아니지요, ofcourse not.

OP would you really believe information from someone calledd 'Bigmac'?!?
Honestly the stuff people write on these forums sometimes is beyond beggar's belief.

[some waygug-in]

I agree with Big Mac, it's something you'll have to get used to.

Not that I think it "should be" that way, it's just that all the ranting on Dave's about how things should be won't change a thing.

Koreans do have a different sense of what should be private.
(especially in rural areas)

Not saying I agree with it, but that's the way it is for a lot of people.

If you are going to let a small thing like your card being read bother you, then you won't last long.

Try going to a doctor and then the whole school gets to read your medical report before you see it, then tell me about invasions of privacy.

[Troglodyte]

I know that medical info here is not confidential, but bank details ARE! There are no two ways about it. It's not a cultural thing. If there were flowers with a card on your desk, and the card wasn't sealed in an envelope, I can easily see people looking at the card. That IS common here and not considered rude. I'd probably ignore that. But if teachers or other staff are yell at you or try to put you in your place by intimidating you or insulting you (intentionally) then some would argue that it's a cultural thing - and it is. A lot of Koreans do still have a feudal type mentality that the boss is infallible and has to be obeyed. But this tends to be more common with bosses of smaller schools or ones with limited leadership/business experience. Same applies to managers, co-teachers, supervisors. If they just got the position because of seniority they may have no people managing experience and they fall back on this tactic. The thing is that not all bosses have this mentality. Some are very nice, particularly if they have a generally nice personality to begin with. So I'd have to say that in addition to being culturally acceptable, it's also a personality thing. Either way though, I wouldn't tolerate it for long. Save up your money. Get another copy of your documents ready and then make your exit.

[superNET]

[earthquakez]

Jenipa, as StevieG pointed out I generalised about older Koreans. I actually meant that regarding the Korean boss who ignores you, he is the kind of older Korean who is simply reflecting the heirarchical culture.

However, I stick by my true observations of heirarchical behaviour towards young, newcomer teachers in one of my old public schools. I am not saying all older Koreans ignore their younger co workers but it's certainly not unusual. Stevie G - you're mistaken about Koreans not ignoring each other at work.

It's culturally acceptable for the seniors to not go out of their way to make conversation with the juniors. That is not rude by their standards although I find it creates a fairly sterile work atmosphere. I am not the only one to have experienced this at their public school as many of my friends, some gone from Korea, some still here, have worked in public schools and noted the same. Koreans stick with their age groups generally and unlike in a western country where young newcomers can feel free to chat with those older, it's not etiquette most of the time in a Korean workplace - whether it's a school or company.

My point to Jenipa was - it happens to young/younger Koreans so it's not surprising if it happens to her when her boss doesn't acknowledge her presence. Jenipa, I think you need to engage in some attempts to get a working relationship going with the Korean co teacher who has most to do with you, the female one that is if there is one. Going out for coffee might be a good way to do that.

I know when I was first in Korea at one of the hagwons I worked at my working life improved overnight when I went out with the owner and co worker, and after alway made the effort to do so. This helps to establish a relationship, something that some foreigners don't want to do and the consequence can be bad feelings because it looks like you shun the group.

If they invite you out make sure you go. But whatever you do, go out with the female co worker you're closest to. Get to know her and you'll probably find it's easier to work with her and she'll do things to smooth the way.